Rob John and Brian from Aunkai demonstrating" passive skill"

[junglist]

No. Your point that you're suggesting is all this stuff is worthless. Of course Conor is gonna train for the cage. You think he's gonna be in a Capoeira comp. or something? And how do you know that Condit and MacGregor did this movement stuff for shits and giggles? Were you there to witness it? What do you make of Condit saying this stuff upped his game? What do you make of Wallid Ismail saying yoga gave him the equilibrium to fight well? The fact you want to escape is that these guys DID these things to up their game--it is only you thinking they did this for fun, for recovery or to be "human". Unless you have direct quotes (I do--at least for Condit and Ismail), don't put words in their mouth. Yes, they did sparring but this does not suggest the touch butt, the yoga, the archer stances, etc. were "additives". I don't necessarily agree with their choices of training, but I'm just trying to show that top fighters/grapplers stand by "component" training.

Your nose picking analogy is stupid.

[Ian]

So now you're saying internal training (Aunkai) is the same as movement training (Ido Portal, Movnat)?

[junglist]

Do you have reading problems or what? Good frigging grief! Not once did I say that and I even say this "I don't necessarily agree with their choices of training, but I'm just trying to show that top fighters/grapplers stand by "component" training."

[Ian]

Whatever the reason for your departure from common sense...

...just because an incredibly SMALL HANDFUL of mma fighters engage in some extracurricular drills that result in QUESTIONABLE BOTTOM LINE IMPACT...

...it does not follow that a COMPLETELY DISSIMILAR SET OF DRILLS can be justified, especially after you’ve seen that they result in GOD-AWFUL SPARRING.

[hl1978]

This is hilarious stuff, arguing over "sparring" where they aren't trying to demonstrate technique, timing, etc. If people can't tell how their movement is different, or at the very least how they aren't unbalanced while moving, I'm not sure why they're on an internal martial arts forum.

[jaime_g]

This is hilarious stuff, arguing over "sparring" where they aren't trying to demonstrate technique, timing, etc. If people can't tell how their movement is different, or at the very least how they aren't unbalanced while moving, I'm not sure why they're on an internal martial arts forum.

You just can't say that their movement is different or that they aren't unbalanced when they are doing white belt mistakes

Just look at this one for god's sake



Internal conditioning gives you a ton of options to avoid this situation or reverse it. But that "I'm in a guillotine, I'm going to double leg him" it's a big NO in any decent place.

If you can't fight, don't upload sparring videos, you are embarrasing your teacher and making people lose interest in your stuff.

And I repeat that internal training it's the most important thing for me and I'm completely sure that they can share a lot of interesting information about it. I listen and train with many internal guys with excelent conditioning that cant fight.

[Ian]

You just can't say that their movement is different or that they aren't unbalanced when they are doing white belt mistakes.

+1,000

Wait, but you don't know the context of these white belt mistakes.

These are all just different training methods. Different, but not better or worse. All equally valid.

[Bao]

If you can't fight, don't upload sparring videos, you are embarrasing your teacher and making people lose interest in your stuff.

It's ok for me if they know they suck and are open about it.
But if you are going to make money on IMA, you shouldn't do sparring regardless skill or not, period. It's not good for any "internal branding".

And I repeat that internal training it's the most important thing for me and I'm completely sure that they can share a lot of interesting information about it. I listen and train with many internal guys with excelent conditioning that cant fight.

Yeah, who cares about if someone have fighting experience, won tournaments or whatever? Does that prove anything about knowledge in IMA or teaching skills?

[junglist]

Whatever the reason for your departure from common sense...

...just because an incredibly SMALL HANDFUL of mma fighters engage in some extracurricular drills that result in QUESTIONABLE BOTTOM LINE IMPACT...

...it does not follow that a COMPLETELY DISSIMILAR SET OF DRILLS can be justified, especially after you’ve seen that they result in GOD-AWFUL SPARRING.

Wow, stick to a point will you?

1) I wasn't even addressing you. I was addressing dspyrido. He is against training components, movement drills, etc. he is suggesting we "get on" with it instead of playing games and asked what his analysis would be for fighters that engage in component training. So no I'm not trying to justify anything.

2) Did I mention it's not sparring? Maybe Brian shouldn't have put those videos up but as soon as I saw those videos, I knew those guys weren't sparring. I've seen Rob spar, and he doesn't spar like that. They were playing with balance/alignment/etc. Whether you think it's stupid and worthless for fighting is up for you to think about and decide. One day maybe you can show up and show these guys how wrong they are. But truth be told that the process is being mistaken for the end results.

[Ian]

What kind of massive cognitive dissonance is this?

1) I wasn't even addressing you. I was addressing dspyrido.

Youv'e been directly replying to the two of us since page two.

2) Did I mention it's not sparring? Maybe Brian shouldn't have put those videos up but as soon as I saw those videos, I knew those guys weren't sparring. I've seen Rob spar, and he doesn't spar like that.

Is it what they themselves consider sparring... if they label it "sparring"?

[Bao]

I knew those guys weren't sparring. I've seen Rob spar, and he doesn't spar like that. They were playing with balance/alignment/etc.

Then why is the name on the vids "sparring"? Maybe "Brian" think it's sparring? If you are not in the vid, who are you to say what it is? The vids says sparring and that's how they will be percieved. Like, if I am not sparring but did something else, I would know that it was balance practice/push hand or whatever. I wouldn't call it anything else than it is because I know that would be kind of stupid and lead to mistakes and people getting the wrong impression of what I did. The guy who made the vid says it's sparring and I will think of it as sparrng until that guy says anything else.

...

[junglist]

What kind of massive cognitive dissonance is this?

1) I wasn't even addressing you. I was addressing dspyrido.

Youv'e been directly replying to the two of us since page two.

2) Did I mention it's not sparring? Maybe Brian shouldn't have put those videos up but as soon as I saw those videos, I knew those guys weren't sparring. I've seen Rob spar, and he doesn't spar like that.

Is it what they themselves consider sparring... if they label it "sparring"?

Nope. That's just you that's confused.

1) Um no. I wasn't addressing you anymore after you clearly didn't want to continue.

2) It was a mislabel. Sue them.

3) I actually know you from here awhile back. We had some interesting conversations 5-6 years ago about jogging, Systema, and using internal stuff for Filipino weapons (and I'm doing that now). You had an interesting background with Systema Vasiliev (Valentin) and CMA. It's a shame how antagonistic you've become.

[Ian]

1) Um no. I wasn't addressing you anymore after you clearly didn't want to continue.

So when I wrote "So now you're saying internal training (Aunkai) is the same as movement training (Ido Portal, Movnat)?" and you responded to that directly - on this page - who were you talking to?

2) It was a mislabel. Sue them.

Or don't put words in their mouths.

If they say that's what they think is sparring, why do you insist they're not trying to spar?

3) I actually know you from here awhile back. We had some interesting conversations 5-6 years ago about jogging, Systema, and using internal stuff for Filipino weapons (and I'm doing that now). You had an interesting background with Systema Vasiliev (Valentin) and CMA. It's a shame how antagonistic you've become.

It's kind of hypocritical to accuse me of being antagonistic.
"Do you have reading problems or what? Good frigging grief!" - junglist

Anyway, for old friendship's sake, I'll be the first to apologise - sorry for being antagonistic and derailing your thread.

I stand by my original comment - "The proof is in the pudding. I'm against training components that lead to those results... and trying to make excuses for the minutiae when you've already seen the end product."

[RobP3]

No comment on the OP but as a general observation - it's one thing doing attribute training drills, it's another to know how to map those onto practical work. Depending on people's aims of course

[junglist]

1) Um no. I wasn't addressing you anymore after you clearly didn't want to continue.

So when I wrote "So now you're saying internal training (Aunkai) is the same as movement training (Ido Portal, Movnat)?" and you responded to that directly - on this page - who were you talking to?

2) It was a mislabel. Sue them.

Or don't put words in their mouths.

If they say that's what they think is sparring, why do you insist they're not trying to spar?

3) I actually know you from here awhile back. We had some interesting conversations 5-6 years ago about jogging, Systema, and using internal stuff for Filipino weapons (and I'm doing that now). You had an interesting background with Systema Vasiliev (Valentin) and CMA. It's a shame how antagonistic you've become.

It's kind of hypocritical to accuse me of being antagonistic.
"Do you have reading problems or what? Good frigging grief!" - junglist

Anyway, for old friendship's sake, I'll be the first to apologise - sorry for being antagonistic and derailing your thread.

I stand by my original comment - "The proof is in the pudding. I'm against training components that lead to those results... and trying to make excuses for the minutiae when you've already seen the end product."

1. To you but that's when you started to address me. You suggested I was trying to justify what Rob was doing by bringing up the components thing--I wasn't. I only brought up the components thing because dspyrido is against it (and you admitted that you have no problem with it). I didn't bring it up to justify what Rob was doing nor was I trying to equate it.

2. you got me there. But Brian was the one who put up the video. Not Rob. Rob full out told me that it's an attribution development drill. I wish he was here to chime in.

3. Well you were, bud. You said we should focus on the end results and not the components (which I disagree with. And probably Dan Harden and other IMA guys who do MMA would prolly too. And you might say these component parts are decontextualized and are difficult to properly assimilate into dynamic combative movement but to me IMA is not about using irrelevant applications (derived from forms) in striking, clinching, and grappling (or even weapons like sticks and knives) but about ingraining attributes into sitting, standing, walking, pushing, pulling, lifting and I'll even say lying down. Because if you can have a relaxed, neutral body that naturally emits nuanced force in all these modalities, then you can probably figure out a way to apply it in striking, grappling, clinching, knife work and even in stick work (which I'm doing now). So to focus on end results without targeting attributes that will give me an edge is something I disagree with. And this does not mean I will not spar. If I had money I would do BJJ and I'll probably work with a pro and amateur boxer here in Japan to see how I can move with bujutsu principles in the shape of boxing movement). I asked then what you think about Conor McGregor working with Ido Portal and you said "yeah no point arguing with you." as if I was trolling. I was actually asking you a legit question and you write me off and then come back and say "you're equating Ido portal with aunkai now?". I didn't appreciate that and felt you were somewhat trolling And hence antagonistic. But that doesn't matter now and I apologize as well.

4. Again. I stand by my statement: that's not a spar in the conventional sense of the word.