Qinna partner practice from one of my classes

[Fa Xing]

I know he didn't. I also could care less about describing BJJ as an "internal" art because no martial art is "internal" or "external." Quite frankly, it's just martial arts, and just how I experienced it yesterday while fighting, it's person who has better skill development, structure, calm under pressure, and conditioning that wins a fight. Everything else is theoretical BS.

Feeling sorry for ya, You are a long way from home and running further away. Caught up in the hectic modern world, which has no cure.
Peace.

I think you need to lay off the drugs.

[willie]

Peace.

I think you need to lay off the drugs.[/quote]

Sorry I don't drink or do drugs.
I have a good friend who was envious of my build at that time.
Max Bench 325LBS
Max Squat 335LBS
31 consecutive chin up's without cheating.

Any ways. it was all natural from 6 years of effort.
I had a friend who begged me to bring him to the gym and be my partner.
He was 60 LBS over weight.
I got him to drop the fat and add more muscle, he made very good achievements, but that wasn't good enough, he wanted more...
Then the steroid use....
looking great and feeling great was no longer valid. get it?

Oh wait I have to edit this one because of the drug statement.
Just read your resume. WOW!
Glad you are a doctor then maybe you can afford to be completely retrained now. lol!

[Bao]

Quite frankly, it's just martial arts, and just how I experienced it yesterday while fighting, it's person who has better skill development, structure, calm under pressure, and conditioning that wins a fight. Everything else is theoretical BS.

Wang Yangming would probably heart fully agree...

"Thought and learning are of small value unless translated into action."
"To know and not to act is not to know."

But theory has it's place IMHO. The lineup of "internal" qualities you presented is just theory unless put into action, but I still wouldn't call it BS.

[Fa Xing]

Quite frankly, it's just martial arts, and just how I experienced it yesterday while fighting, it's person who has better skill development, structure, calm under pressure, and conditioning that wins a fight. Everything else is theoretical BS.

Wang Yangming would probably heart fully agree...

"Thought and learning are of small value unless translated into action."
"To know and not to act is not to know."

But theory has it's place IMHO. The lineup of "internal" qualities you presented is just theory unless put into action, but I still wouldn't call it BS.

Yes, but those qualities are applied and drilled until they come about on their own without much thought, and then which they are less theory, or hypothetical which would be a better word, and thus not BS. If someone just talks about it, and does nothing to apply it, then it doesn't work no matter how awesome it sound.

[willie]

This video is pretty nice with decent commentary on internal taiji.

[wushutiger]

I know he didn't. I also could care less about describing BJJ as an "internal" art because no martial art is "internal" or "external." Quite frankly, it's just martial arts, and just how I experienced it yesterday while fighting, it's person who has better skill development, structure, calm under pressure, and conditioning that wins a fight. Everything else is theoretical BS.

Exactly, its theoretical BS. And as Sun Lutang also didn't like the distinction between internal and external, neither do the majority of the older generation of practitioners still around today. My teacher and our family is one example. Talking about qi and all the other stuff that is so common today is not done. Funnily neither did my teachers teachers talk the way people do today.

If you want to understand the awakening of intent, the focus and combination of body, mind, breath and spirit and the true essence of your practice, your can only find it when applied in combat. Also try your technique and form practice with live weapons and see what that does to the psychological and "internal" aspects of your training. Again, you cannot understand any of this unless you experience it.

About 2 months ago my uncle, Zhao Dayuan's student was accepting students and had a ceremony I attended with my teacher. Zhao addressed the new students and had only one thing to say. The essence and purpose of training is combat. Without this all other practice is empty, and talking about theoretical principles without testing, feeling and applying them is pointless and has lead the martial arts to degenerate as they have today.

[wushutiger]

Saying another art lacks something without experiencing that art fully is childish ignorance. It's like patriotism. While I practice Xingyi and Bagua the old way, with seriousness and maximum effort, and while these are for me excellent methods to fully develop mind and body, I have learnt over the years that they are not the only ways to do so. There are no other martial arts more important than my Xingyi and Bagua, but my Xingyi and Bagua are not more important than any other martial arts.

[origami_itto]

Saying another art lacks something without experiencing that art fully is childish ignorance. It's like patriotism. While I practice Xingyi and Bagua the old way, with seriousness and maximum effort, and while these are for me excellent methods to fully develop mind and body, I have learnt over the years that they are not the only ways to do so. There are no other martial arts more important than my Xingyi and Bagua, but my Xingyi and Bagua are not more important than any other martial arts.

I agree 100%. Years before I ever heard of Taijiquan I had begun developing myself according to Go Rin No Sho and studying yogic meditation.

There's a lot of theory that goes into martial arts and health maintenance.

I spent several years fighting with heavy weapons and armor in the SCA, and a lot of the same mechanics for generating power were involved. Waist turns, moving with a unified body, etc. When you're carrying a heavy sword and shield and wearing 50 lbs of extra weight, you have no choice but to use good mechanics and let physics do the work. It's why I still train with weapons.

The idea of letting gravity and posture do most of the work to generate power is not unique, neither are any of the other concepts usually lumped in loosely with internal.

Where I see Taijiquan in particular as being truly different from anything else I've studied or experienced is the frame spectrum. You train the movements on the large frame with fully visible open joints moving through a wide range of motion and then scale your apparent movement back while still generating the same amount of power through weight shifts and turning until it can be generated without apparently moving at all. The same qi is flowing through the structure, but the physical movements at this point are reduced to their essential minimalistic expression, the dynamic interplay of tension shifting throughout the structure.

It's perhaps best illustrated by rooting, someone tries to push me, I sink into my root, as they attempt to change the vector of their force to find the weak angles in my root, I use tension, relaxation, posture, and intention to change how I'm routing that force to neutralize its affect on my structure without using any visible movements.

There's nothing else I've experienced which takes that approach to get that result, though there are plenty of arts that get to a similar result through their methods.

I'm okay with qi as mechanical energy and as the bioelectric force that sustains cellular activity, sure. I have trouble with claims of qi in the sense of bio energy being used directly as an offensive weapon. I have not yet experienced anything that cannot be explained through classical physics and the "magic" of training the frame spectrum. The effects of the combined skillset can be spooky. Just yesterday in push hands I found myself jumping in place and wondering out loud why I did that. My partner did it to me three more times before I accepted it was his doing. Nothing spooky at all about it though. Before I pushed down I raised up and he sensed that and just helped me go up, when I sank instead of my body going down my feet came up because my root was already broken.

Nothing magic, no mystical qi, just intelligently applied physics. It can seem spooky and mystical though, and I'm sure some enjoy playing that up to sell superpowers.

I don't know of any other training that can produce that specific sort of result regarding sensitivity and effective responsiveness. Translating that skill to combat, even at a low level, is highly effective.

[windwalker]

I spent several years fighting with heavy weapons and armor in the SCA, and a lot of the same mechanics for generating power were involved. Waist turns, moving with a unified body, etc. When you're carrying a heavy sword and shield and wearing 50 lbs of extra weight, you have no choice but to use good mechanics and let physics do the work. It's why I still train with weapons.

The idea of letting gravity and posture do most of the work to generate power is not unique, neither are any of the other concepts usually lumped in loosely with internal.

Used to watch SCA events,,,very cool...I would hope someday CMA also hosts things similar.
It's been tried before with CMA but never seems to catch on...people then start to change the styles to fit
into the current format, something that I've never agreed with....

I would suggest reading some of writings on this site
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

It's perhaps best illustrated by rooting, someone tries to push me, I sink into my root, as they attempt to change the vector of their force to find the weak angles in my root, I use tension, relaxation, posture, and intention to change how I'm routing that force to neutralize its affect on my structure without using any visible movements.

There's nothing else I've experienced which takes that approach to get that result, though there are plenty of arts that get to a similar result through their methods.

I'm okay with qi as mechanical energy and as the bioelectric force that sustains cellular activity, sure. I have trouble with claims of qi in the sense of bio energy being used directly as an offensive weapon. I have not yet experienced anything that cannot be explained through classical physics and the "magic" of training the frame spectrum.

The effects of the combined skillset can be spooky. Just yesterday in push hands I found myself jumping in place and wondering out loud why I did that. My partner did it to me three more times before I accepted it was his doing. Nothing spooky at all about it though. Before I pushed down I raised up and he sensed that and just helped me go up, when I sank instead of my body going down my feet came up because my root was already broken.

that might be one way of looking at it, others as I would might explain it in a different way.. You mentioned "jumping" or "hopping" as some call it.

Sensed what? might be a good starting point.

Why should it be "spooky" push hands is just a type of training. The question for most is training what?
Reading the posting here many have different answers for this. The masters are pretty specific as to what it is and is not.
IME most people seem to ignore this and just focus on "pushing"

Even now many look at taiji as some type of stand up grappling ignoring
the other facets of the art.

"Willie" is one of the few people I've read talking about the other uses...

Nothing magic, no mystical qi, just intelligently applied physics. It can seem spooky and mystical though, and I'm sure some enjoy playing that up to sell superpowers.

I don't know of any other training that can produce that specific sort of result regarding sensitivity and effective responsiveness. Translating that skill to combat, even at a low level, is highly effective

Most acknowledged masters, I know of do try to make what is done more understandable relating it to "physics" although physics holds only part of the answer. Translating the skill is secondary to getting the skill in the first place. This to me is where most get hung up or confused about.

Even to the point on an "IMA" site most things shown requiring either inner skill or at least understanding get mocked and those that do not are held up as examples of "inner skill" when clearly in most cases what is done is not much different from what would be consider normal skill sets.

In my own case it was only after some 30yrs of training in CMA that I ran into anyone that did indeed change my whole view point.
On this site there are some members hosting seminars that are said to have skill sets that only few achieved according to those who've attended them.
Might be something worth checking out

[origami_itto]

that might be one way of looking at it, others as I would might explain it in a different way.. You mentioned "jumping" or "hopping" as some call it.

Sensed what? might be a good starting point.


Why should it be "spooky" push hands is just a type of training. The question for most is training what?

The spooky part is where I couldn't tell the difference between my own intention/action and how my partner caused it. It's definitely indicative of my "level" for lack of a better term. A lack of specific sensitivities and some bad habits that need to get trained out.

What he sensed was my intention to push downwards and my preparatory movement upwards. He changed the dynamic of my movement by rising and my weak root broke so that when I tried to sink, I rose. My teacher could make me pick up one of my feet and stomp it down just by giving me a high-five. I felt nothing but the contact and my foot flopping. His teacher apparently had a habit of making rude orderlies in the nursing home fall down with a light touch from his sick bed. It's spooky (meaning not readily understandable through normal perspective) but it's just physics and sensitivity.

Reading the posting here many have different answers for this. The masters are pretty specific as to what it is and is not.
IME most people seem to ignore this and just focus on "pushing"

Even now many look at taiji as some type of stand up grappling ignoring
the other facets of the art.

"Willie" is one of the few people I've read talking about the other uses...

Nothing magic, no mystical qi, just intelligently applied physics. It can seem spooky and mystical though, and I'm sure some enjoy playing that up to sell superpowers.

I don't know of any other training that can produce that specific sort of result regarding sensitivity and effective responsiveness. Translating that skill to combat, even at a low level, is highly effective

Most acknowledged masters, I know of do try to make what is done more understandable relating it to "physics" although physics holds only part of the answer. Translating the skill is secondary to getting the skill in the first place. This to me is where most get hung up or confused about.

Even to the point on an "IMA" site most things shown requiring either inner skill or at least understanding get mocked and those that do not are held up as examples of "inner skill" when clearly in most cases what is done is not much different from what would be consider normal skill sets.

In my own case it was only after some 30yrs of training in CMA that I ran into anyone that did indeed change my whole view point.
On this site there are some members hosting seminars that are said to have skill sets that only few achieved according to those who've attended them.
Might be something worth checking out

I'm definitely interested in checking out anything that challenges my understanding and extends it. As I was saying I haven't seen anything YET that can't be explained through psychology, sensitivity, and physics. My understanding of Chinese is limited, but what seems widely accepted is that qi is a very broad term that I translate as energy in the widest sense that can be applied to specific expressions, electrical, bio-electrical, mechanical, spiritual (I guess that's shen, really, meh), mental, etc.

I am under no illusion that I have achieved the pinnacle of taijiquan cultivation, it does indeed keep going the farther I go, and the results are personally amazing and have been at pretty much every step along the journey. If I never reach that pinnacle of chiworthiness, I would still consider this a journey well worth taking. It is erroneous to reduce the benefit of the art to a single aspect of expression. I believe everyone should practice taijiquan because everyone can benefit from it. Some will pursue the art further than others. To each goes the benefit they seek and work towards. "Standing grappling" is just one expression of the art.

In the meantime, I filter experience and phenomena through my current understanding and re-examine past experience when new experience changes that understanding. Any study of the occult must be firmly rooted in science and objectivity to prevent getting lost in woo-woo land and becoming useless. I also consider this to be an expression of the art.

I am not yet capable of understanding the mystical application of qi directly as an offensive weapon. Opening meridians, strengthening the body and organs, enhancing sensitivity and mental acuity, cultivating shen, sure. Projecting it into someone else's body to control their musculature? I'm skeptical. The same results are achievable through application of the small frame principles and require no qi (in the sense of bio-energy) to work, qi (in the sense of mechanical energy) is sufficient. Individual subjective perception and explanation of the phenomena is irrelevant as pertains to the objective reality of what is occurring. If we trust subjective understanding implicitly then we have to believe that Jesus really did reach down and take the steering wheel to keep that poor woman from running into that tree. I would have to believe that a little old Chinese man really did walk up to me once in the middle of deep zhan zhang in my bedroom in the middle of the night and poke me with a stick to correct my posture.

I, of course, remain open minded and eager to be proven wrong. Just don't tell me that this is all there is to Taijiquan when I feel I've reaped so many rewards already. I also consider this to be an expression of the art.

My favorite quote of Master Liang's is "If you only rely on books, it's best not to read books. If you only rely on teachers, it's best not to have teachers."

Train correctly according to the correct principles and the benefits come naturally. Take what you can learn and make it your own, never stop learning. Test everything until you understand it. Training (among other things) is a process of stripping away delusions and approaching the truth. If I can't understand something, I will not stop studying it until I do, then I'll probably study it a bit more to make sure. I eagerly await discovery of qi powers.

Respectfully,
-O.I.