Qinna partner practice from one of my classes

[jonathan.bluestein]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3Ig-Xqy5M

[Dmitri]

Nice, thanks for sharing.

A bit of a feedback from a ground-grappling perspective -- you need to control his back at the end, otherwise it would be very easy to roll out of that hold (he's need to sort of "jump" forward and roll over his left shoulder). The wrist could still be in some trouble, but that's almost pain-compliance there; people can still fight with broken wrists.
Once you have put someone on the ground in such a controlled fashion, you want to control their center, not a remote limb IMHO.
Also you are not very mobile sitting nicely like that with your legs crossed.
FWIW

[jaime_g]

I was going to say the same. It's not a good idea to willingly go to the ground if you arent a grappler. There are too many things that can be used against you without even noticing.

Just random search any omoplata counter and you'll see some of the problems
https://youtu.be/dNirW3aelYg

[jonathan.bluestein]

Context is required Dmitri. I agree with some of the comments in the event that this whole thing takes place at the speed and effort demonstrated in the video. However, this is not the manner in which these techniques are applied in combat. The lock-takedown is supposed to break the elbow with fa jin, and if that does not succeed due to a weak jin or the elbow being too stiff, then the opponent at least gets slammed face-down into the ground. Further, the elbow is controlled as one goes down, and then the shoulder is stepped on, hopefully gets dislocated. This is all very gently implied in the video, but not actually executed because this is a flow drill. I still haven't had a student who managed to easily get out of that cross-legged position, and I do let them try. So each technique is meant to be a followup of other things done in succession - you do not attempt one before the opponent is already seriously hurt or at least majorly unbalanced.

When it is up to me, I personally never choose to go to the ground unless teaching it. People still need to learn this as an option.

[Dmitri]

Understand that; I was referring specifically (as I mentioned) to the end of it.

[GrahamB]

J - I'd agree with what the guys here are saying - it all looks good until he goes to the ground (and sits down on his butt). At that point it all looks wrong. But before that it was good, so you know, there's some good and some bad.

[Fa Xing]

I remember seeing this on FB, and meant to comment on it there. I liked most of it until it goes to the ground, and I see this from my VERY limited experience in BJJ, that if it were an experienced white belt or blue belt, they would be out of it pretty easily and that would put you in a bad position. If you've had students try to get out, do any of them have experience and training BJJ/GJJ or other groundfighting for more than a year? You learn pretty quick to get over the pain-compliance issue after some time in a grappling art.

[wushutiger]

In general, I liked the demo. As a grappler however, as the others are saying, it wouldnt go down like that with someone with some basic grappling ability. Also, as I regularly grapple, allowing all locks/throws to be utilized in a free format, it isnt that easy to break elbows and dislocate shoulders when someone is actually trying to attack/fight with you, so they advice about control is good otherwise you could end up in a bad situation. Otherwise, its good stuff to see that you are playing with these concepts Jonathan.

[C.J.W.]

In Taiji Praying Mantis (HK branch), there's a similar standing lock/break that finishes with a knee on the opponent's elbow.

[jaime_g]

I still haven't had a student who managed to easily get out of that cross-legged position, and I do let them try

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mwTslcGH1Y

01:55-02:40

[Bao]

I liked it. Looks solid to me.
Maybe there are just other times now when everybody practice ground stuff. Over twenty years ago, no one would comment this going down stuff negatively. It would just be considered utterly cool qinna. Personally, I would never try go down to the ground regardless who. I think you must be very good at ground fighting if you want to attempt to bring a fight down. Never know what others got up their sleeves.

it isnt that easy to break elbows and dislocate shoulders when someone is actually trying to attack/fight with you,

+1.

[Dmitri]

Over twenty years ago, no one would comment this going down stuff negatively. It would just be considered utterly cool qinna.

True.

But that was also the time when a 170-pound guy from Brazil defeated every opponent he faced (most of whom outweighed him) in several no-weight-limits, no-time-limits, nearly-no-rules televised fighting tournaments in which, on top of everything else, they had to fight several fights per evening.

So yeah, "there are just other times now when everybody practice ground stuff".


(Again, I'm only talking about the very end of the OP clip; the rest of it looks alright.)

[willie]

Over twenty years ago, no one would comment this going down stuff negatively. It would just be considered utterly cool qinna.

True.

But that was also the time when a 170-pound guy from Brazil defeated every opponent he faced (most of whom outweighed him) in several no-weight-limits, no-time-limits, nearly-no-rules televised fighting tournaments in which, on top of everything else, they had to fight several fights per evening.

So yeah, "there are just other times now when everybody practice ground stuff".


(Again, I'm only talking about the very end of the OP clip; the rest of it looks alright.)

HA, More entertainment value.
The UFC was owned by the gracies and they controlled who fought who in the early days.
They have done a lot of good by exposing the world to the ground game, but as you possibly could recall,
they dissed every singe art along the way. they bad mouthed Karate, boxing, every type of kung fu. Then when
other martial artist with the very same art they dissed learned bjj they could no longer compete. they now
were forced to swallow all that bad mouthing and start to learn the same arts that they dissed...

moral of the story, don't be a hater. LOL!

[Dmitri]

the Gracies' behavior/morals/etc. are completely irrelevant here

[vagabond]

morals irrelevant, additionally willie, what you just posted is revisionist history at best. i.e., nonsense. they fought a ton of people, and won most of their fights. they've also lost several, and the significant part is their losses are almost always to someone with pretty decent wrestling or jiujutsu knowledge.

why is everyone so personally invested in the status of one or two concepts? someone goes "hey, from a jiujutsu perspective your finish could use a little tweaking" and all the sudden the wags are all snarls. for all the talk of "emptying cups". . .








btw the second half of the steven kesting vid says everything that needs saying