Uprooting skill

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Re: Uprooting skill

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:10 am

Very interesting discussion the things in this thread turned into. Or something... :P

Uprooting and displacement, I see both in the clip.. As I would describe the diffencies anyway... :-\

Uprooting: finding a straight line through the center of the someone's mass in order to make him "float" or unbalance (so you can push, throw him or whatever)

Displacement: adjust his movement or posture to bring him out of balance (now, you can use his movement and displacement to your own favor, just continue the movemeant, reverse it, let him stumble or turn it into a throw or whatever.)

This is how I would describe it anyway, just by quickly thinking about the words and differences of, uh, stuff... I am not sure that I got it totally right. Maybe someone can come up with a better definition? ... Or something? :P
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Re: Uprooting skill

Postby I am... on Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:33 am

charles wrote:
Dmitri wrote:This "displacement" is what everybody does (i.e. including those completely untrained in anything) when they try to move something very heavy horizontally. That's the "mechanical" side of it, anyway; there's also some (resulting) "imposition of intent" going on.


Generally true, maybe less so when one who is untrained tries to push another person, rather than an inanimate object.

So, identify the specifics of the mechanics of it when one person does it to another. Do that, and one will find the underlying principle that makes this work against another person - and also allows the other person, who is also aware of the same principle, to prevent/neutralize it.

What he is doing in the original video is allowing the body to compress and then expand into his partner while maintaining/directing this compression into the ground as well and connecting to his partners center/spine. The rebound transmits through connection to the partner's center and takes their balance and connection to the ground away for a moment. There is a lot one can add to this but on a base level that is the main element I see at play.

The partner can negate the effects of this by simply not allowing a connection to their own center/spine to be developed, not allowing a physical connection that can transmit the compression into them, or even just by falling lifeless to the floor if they really wanted to. Most people are not aware of what will happen and why when this type of skill is used (in my experience) and will tend to resist or stay how they were which in turn allows the connection to their center to do its job and send them off their feet for a moment.

I agree that learning to hit with concept can create quite a bit of impact and effect.
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Re: Uprooting skill

Postby windwalker on Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:16 pm

i would be interested in hearing what you don't agree with
and why


It's to much outer movement, in the clip he steps pretty far into the others "space" I feel this will tend to lead to bad habits of
always trying to step into another's space instead of either being able to project ones own into it, or being able to empty owns own space for anyone trying to put theirs into it.

Just my thoughts on the clip, very much respect his work although, I would say his ideas of "intent" and mine are probably different.
Noted by those who've worked with him, comparing it to my own work....

how you do it differently

;) wow,,,hard and good question to ask

in my work we don't change the point of contact, we change inside this point.
which then causes the other to uproot themselves... the higher lever of the person doing it the
more dramatic the effect. this means from any position with out much if any outer movement at what ever point of
contact the other person will tend to uproot themselves.
Its the kind of stuff that gets questioned here...but is very real and understandable once one starts to work
with this idea. Whether its useful or not kinda depends on level, depth, and intended usage of ones practice.

taiji was once called "touch boxing" which for me means that at first touch no matter what or where
one is contacted or contacts with some one else they should be able to affect the other
though the point of contact, through the understanding the how, what, and why of change...

there is inner and outer change....which might mean different things depending on ones practice and
level of practice.....one central idea being stillness within movement and movement with in stillness
reflecting this.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:09 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Uprooting skill

Postby Franklin on Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:13 pm

windwalker wrote:
i would be interested in hearing what you don't agree with
and why


It's to much outer movement, in the clip he steps pretty far into the others "space" I feel this will tend to lead to bad habits of
always trying to step into another's space instead of either being able to project ones own into it, or being able to empty owns own space for anyone trying to put theirs into it.

Just my thoughts on the clip, very much respect his work although, I would say his ideas of "intent" and mine are probably different.
Noted by those who've worked with him, comparing it to my own work....

how you do it differently

;) wow,,,hard and good question to ask

in my work we don't change the point of contact, we change inside this point.
which then causes the other to uproot themselves... the higher lever of the person doing it the
more dramatic the effect. this means from any position with out much if any outer movement at what ever point of
contact the other person will tend to uproot themselves.
Its the kind of stuff that gets questioned here...but is very real and understandable once one starts to work
with this idea. Whether its useful or not kinda depends on level, depth, and intended usage of ones practice.

taiji was once called "touch boxing" which for me means that at first touch no matter what or where
one is contacted or contacts with some one else they should be able to affect the other
though the point of contact, through the understanding the how, what, and why of change...

there is inner and outer change....which might mean different things depending on ones practice and
level of practice.....one central idea being stillness within movement and movement with in stillness
reflecting this.



thanks

i can understand what you are saying
(at least from the perspective of my own experience and practice..
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Re: Uprooting skill

Postby Gus Mueller on Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:22 pm

In the first 20 seconds he's doing Bruce Lee's long-ago-explained 1 Inch Punch, but with a push instead of a punch and he steps through the student's horse riding posture to push across a line of no resistance. It's all in the setup, requires no skill, no special way of moving, no "internal development" whatever you might conceive that to be. It's still not even a carny trick.
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Re: Uprooting skill

Postby Franklin on Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:57 pm

Bao wrote:Very interesting discussion the things in this thread turned into. Or something... :P

Uprooting and displacement, I see both in the clip.. As I would describe the diffencies anyway... :-\

Uprooting: finding a straight line through the center of the someone's mass in order to make him "float" or unbalance (so you can push, throw him or whatever)

Displacement: adjust his movement or posture to bring him out of balance (now, you can use his movement and displacement to your own favor, just continue the movemeant, reverse it, let him stumble or turn it into a throw or whatever.)

This is how I would describe it anyway, just by quickly thinking about the words and differences of, uh, stuff... I am not sure that I got it totally right. Maybe someone can come up with a better definition? ... Or something? :P



i see uprooting as when you take away the person's root
their two feet leave the ground,
and they have no more connection with the earth

different from just pushing them or moving them around

i would say that the way it is done in the clip is by displacement
similar to the way a boat floats on water

you float him through your own structure...



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Re: Uprooting skill

Postby Giles on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:07 am

Gus Mueller wrote:In the first 20 seconds he's doing Bruce Lee's long-ago-explained 1 Inch Punch, but with a push instead of a punch and he steps through the student's horse riding posture to push across a line of no resistance. It's all in the setup, requires no skill, no special way of moving, no "internal development" whatever you might conceive that to be. It's still not even a carny trick.


I’d like to come back on this one. As “I am” writes:

What he is doing in the original video is allowing the body to compress and then expand into his partner while maintaining/directing this compression into the ground as well and connecting to his partners center/spine. The rebound transmits through connection to the partner's center and takes their balance and connection to the ground away for a moment. There is a lot one can add to this but on a base level that is the main element I see at play.


What is not ‘just basic’ about this is that, when correctly done, the arms of the person doing the technique are extremely relaxed and this makes it much harder for the other person to even detect the incoming force in time, let alone defend against it effectively. If you know what is coming into you and can sense exactly when it will arrive, then sure, it can be neutralized by relaxing and moving correspondingly. But this kind of attack tends to go right under the radar in both proprioceptive and visual terms, especially in the heat of the moment. Even as you are uprooted and moved, an important part of the brain doesn’t understand what’s going on. And then, as “I am” continues:

Most people are not aware of what will happen and why when this type of skill is used (in my experience) and will tend to resist or stay how they were which in turn allows the connection to their center to do its job and send them off their feet for a moment.


In my own experience, as the person doing the technique it is really hard to relax oneself sufficiently, especially the arms and shoulders, to create this described whole-body effect while retaining martial intent. The instinct and temptation to use too much tension/contraction in the arms is very strong and requires considerable practice to overcome. It is very different indeed from ‘just stepping through to push’, even if the visual appearance is quite similar. So this is a lot more than just a trick.
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Re: Uprooting skill

Postby cloudz on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:23 am

Having read Ralston's book(s) and seen Tim Cartmells Sun Taiji videos; the same method is shown/ described by both; and I assume used in Ralstons clip(s). One aspect that wasn't mentioned here is the transfer between legs. This works the same in both directions, push or pull. As has been mentioned force is received and compressed (into one side), but then transferred to the other (it helps to visualise the force traveling under the ground) then you 'open', particularly at the hip joint on the other side. It works well to good effect and is not so easy to resist when nailed; I've used it quite often in fixed and moving free push-hands to get some advantage.

There is a bit more to it than simply pushing/ stepping through the dead angle.
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