Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:35 am

Niall Keane wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Some people find a lot of worth in exploring things that take longer than 5 minutes to grasp and use directly in a sports match.





Shit !!! Wow!! Did you just see that??? Around 1.41 just as he applies pressure to the elbow joint he releases and the student is catapulted by his elbows "reaction to force" into a series of bounces and ends up upsidedown against the gym wall !!!

Holy fuck!!!

Oh. Wait... no! That didn't happen.


You're absolutely correct.

Wei Jin is obvious by definition. It's easy for most people to see it and understand how it works without too much effort.

Nei Jin is obfuscated by definition. It's harder for most people to see it or understand it.

Stephan's attitude is what's perfect there. He mentions Google's development time management strategies as an analog for training time.

There are 36 Jin in taijiquan, how many can you express and demonstrate? How many have you felt? How many do you actually train and research? How many can you even name or describe?

There is nothing mystical or "unknown" occurring in these clips. I may not be able to explain them properly in terms of physics, but I have seen/felt/performed these techniques on compliant and non-compliant opponents in both training and real-life situations. What you're seeing is simply highly refined basic technique.

So, hey, whatever feeds your practice, man, more power to you. Gimme about a year to get back into shape and I'd love to receive an ass kicking from you.

You can believe or refuse to believe whatever you like and focus on whatever you like. Taijiquan is a generous art and there is something for everyone, but you only have so much time to train. If your focus is what's going to work in your game next week, there's plenty to get out of it. If your focus is finding out what really makes it different and uncovering all of the wonders and marvels contained within the system, there's plenty to get out of it there, too.

So, yeah, you may not see what's happening and that's fine, you don't have to. If you keep looking, you will. If you don't look, you never will. I'm just appreciative that these clips exist and are becoming more accessible so I can see different ways the subtleties are expressed.
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:58 am

Ok let me break this down as simply and crudely as i can without demanding you all take a BSc.Arch course.

Windy and his brigade are presenting the exagerated jumps and hops as the effect of resultant forces on the body. The fallacy presented is the idea of the Newtons balls game. Solid metal structures attached as pendulums, free to rotate around a single fixing.

Now take our bodies....

Not exactly true for our purposes but it will suffice to say that the bones deal with compressive forces and the ligaments, tendons and muscles provide the tensile strength. Like masonry and steel.

Now windy will have you believe that the master sends a force or returns it or bounces it from the ground into (which ever as all have the same action on) the dummies body.

He calculates that it is feasable that a human body should act like the metal spheres in Newtons balls.

so now let's look at all the many fallacies.

1. Nothing is 100% efficient, energy can be lost in many ways and soft material like himan bodies absorb much more than steel balls.

2. The energy leaks through many joints - shock absorbers...
the connection between the ground and the person.. (rubber soles?)
The many joints of the foot, the ankle joint, the knee joint, etc. .. all of these have, even in the linear, shock absorbant characteristics.
Without such the bones would chip and break at their connections and the received force would travel like Newtons balls just as windy wants us to believe.. of course this would result in the head wanting to lift off the body and I assume windy wants us to belive the elastic strength of the softer tissues drags the body with the head? And so the bounce is a scientific fact (I'm really tryin to keep from crying with laughter)

3. The muscles and tendons are capable of receiving in short periods many many times the body weight. This allows us to jump down from heights without behaving like a pogo stick.
There is no way to affect the type of bounce witnessed without it being the magnitude of force required to overcome their absorbtion and stretch capability and as the students do not seem to be suffering from multiple major tears in their muscle culture after the fact we must assume that this is not the case.

4. Catastrophic collapse. If a consider the skeleton as holding compressive strength then the middle third rule applies, I.e. the structure will remain stable as long as the resultant force acts within the middle third (we can consider posture and legs being flying butresses with a dynamic capability. ) when forces act beyond the middle third the structure requires tensile strength and this is provided by the major and micro muscles. The micro muscles can be viewed for our purposes as weaving and binding the skeleton together coping with general stability and the major muscles the steel allowing for great cantilever of expression. So for each jump we must assume massive absorption of forces compressive and tensile along with leakage.
The masters initial bounce will (if he has borrowed ) the power be mostly the weight of the student x gravity x distance (height) plus the proverbial 4 ounces.
A stumble is one thing, a quick and slight hop could also be credible but a full on jump and then this repeated many times without the catastrophic failure of the structure (collapse)... no this breaks the rules of physics.

It is purile bullshit.

QED
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby Bao on Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:02 am

Niall Keane wrote:
Bao wrote:Why focus on what's bad instead of on what's good? :/

See, maybe I'm being illogical? its just through my lens i don't see "respected Chinese gung fu master in pyjamas" I see an old man like any around the world who is claiming to be a top master of martial arts and a coach of such as he has his students with him.


A couple of times, both in the beginning and in the end, he seems quite irritated on his students. For a chinese showing anything like irritation, he must be very, very irritated. The problem, IMHO, is the ambition of chinese students to respect and do everything to not make the teacher lose face. So the question, imho, is not one of fake/real. It's about a mindset between students and teachers that also many chinese teachers dislike. Sometimes, their students try so hard to be as bad as they can just to make the teacher shine. Otst, teachers can not quarrel or show their students that they should act different. So, sometimes, that's just how it is and it benefits no one.

I never trust myself 100%, I accept everyone has a margin of error, and can be guilty of wishful thinking created through the confirmation bias of a self-serving echo-chamber.


A good attitude, IMO. Though I wonder if you demand perfection in a demonstration like this..

I am of course willing to allow somewhat for cultural difference but not to the extent that I must suspend my university degree understanding of science, in my case, one of my degrees being in architectural science and so highly relevent when we are considering forces acting upon static or dynamic structures. I just cannot bring myself to swallow the koolaid and my education demands that I recognise bullshit for what it is. Could there be some genuine advice hidden kneedeep in the shit? Of course... the best lies and all that....


..or if you really can accept differences or flaws due to cultural differences and customs.

It's not about "focusing on the negative" , it's about the serious business of recognizing what's at play. If I were to entertain "magic" in my architectural work ... well... I suspect catastrophic failure would ensue, and that is precisely the Destiny of those who entertain such falacy in martial arts should the proverbial shit hit the fan!


I understand your view. I also try to watch and be very critical. There are many things I don't like in demos very similar this one, and absolutely also things in this vid that I could question. But there are some things in what he says and how, which makes me believe that he has some skill and experience. And I liked his attitude. His student's Xingyi was not so bad either.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:38 am

Niall Keane wrote:Ok let me break this down as simply and crudely as i can without demanding you all take a BSc.Arch course.
...
It is purile bullshit.

QED


A lot of ... what... misunderstanding?

Watch the video in 1/4 speed, look at where the student goes flying and hopping, but watch Master Liu instead of the student. 4:24 is a perfect example. It's just grasp sparrow's tail.

It's not even difficult to see in this case, he's grabbing the student's arm and throwing him around.

Ignore the hopping, that's just neutralizing. When he applies the technique, gently, he's giving them the friendly angle and time to react. It's similar to the aikido falls, but less choreographed. It's a reaction. You feel intense pressure against a joint or a loss of balance and move to alleviate the pressure or regain your balance. When you've got someone sensitive staying attached and continuing to fuck with you, the reaction gets more pronounced. Master Liu gets ahead of his student and the student is stuck reacting and trying to play catchup.

One rough and inaccurate approximation is if you are walking up or down steps and expect there to be another step. Or if you expect the steps to be done and find there is another one. Imagine that at the exact moment you are discovering there is an additional or one less step someone flicks your right ear and pushes in the back of your weighted left knee. How do you react?

Or say you go to pick up a full gallon pitcher of iced tea, only it's only got a half cup of tea left in it, so you put way too much force into picking it up, and at the exact moment you make that movement upwards, somebody hits you in the bicep with a stick. What happens to the pitcher? Try punching yourself in the right bicep while you're moving as if to knock a fly off your left ear.

I don't know why this is so hard for some folks to grasp. It's just sensitivity and mechanics.
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby Fa Xing on Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:09 am

Niall Keane wrote:Ok let me break this down as simply and crudely as i can without demanding you all take a BSc.Arch course.

Windy and his brigade are presenting the exagerated jumps and hops as the effect of resultant forces on the body. The fallacy presented is the idea of the Newtons balls game. Solid metal structures attached as pendulums, free to rotate around a single fixing.

Now take our bodies....

Not exactly true for our purposes but it will suffice to say that the bones deal with compressive forces and the ligaments, tendons and muscles provide the tensile strength. Like masonry and steel.

Now windy will have you believe that the master sends a force or returns it or bounces it from the ground into (which ever as all have the same action on) the dummies body.

He calculates that it is feasable that a human body should act like the metal spheres in Newtons balls.

so now let's look at all the many fallacies.

1. Nothing is 100% efficient, energy can be lost in many ways and soft material like himan bodies absorb much more than steel balls.

2. The energy leaks through many joints - shock absorbers...
the connection between the ground and the person.. (rubber soles?)
The many joints of the foot, the ankle joint, the knee joint, etc. .. all of these have, even in the linear, shock absorbant characteristics.
Without such the bones would chip and break at their connections and the received force would travel like Newtons balls just as windy wants us to believe.. of course this would result in the head wanting to lift off the body and I assume windy wants us to belive the elastic strength of the softer tissues drags the body with the head? And so the bounce is a scientific fact (I'm really tryin to keep from crying with laughter)

3. The muscles and tendons are capable of receiving in short periods many many times the body weight. This allows us to jump down from heights without behaving like a pogo stick.
There is no way to affect the type of bounce witnessed without it being the magnitude of force required to overcome their absorbtion and stretch capability and as the students do not seem to be suffering from multiple major tears in their muscle culture after the fact we must assume that this is not the case.

4. Catastrophic collapse. If a consider the skeleton as holding compressive strength then the middle third rule applies, I.e. the structure will remain stable as long as the resultant force acts within the middle third (we can consider posture and legs being flying butresses with a dynamic capability. ) when forces act beyond the middle third the structure requires tensile strength and this is provided by the major and micro muscles. The micro muscles can be viewed for our purposes as weaving and binding the skeleton together coping with general stability and the major muscles the steel allowing for great cantilever of expression. So for each jump we must assume massive absorption of forces compressive and tensile along with leakage.
The masters initial bounce will (if he has borrowed ) the power be mostly the weight of the student x gravity x distance (height) plus the proverbial 4 ounces.
A stumble is one thing, a quick and slight hop could also be credible but a full on jump and then this repeated many times without the catastrophic failure of the structure (collapse)... no this breaks the rules of physics.

It is purile bullshit.

QED


Man, that was so logical...I loved it.
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:59 pm

Fa Xing wrote:
Man, that was so logical...I loved it.



Wow dosn't take much for you to love....

ya might want to understand who it is that some are criticizing
for pseudo science

Chuckrow has a Ph.D. in experimental physics from NYU and taught physics at NYU,
The Cooper Union, Fieldston, and other schools for forty-three years.

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

everything noted in the OP clip can be explained
if one understands the physics behind it, taken into account the
mind that holds it all together.

no this breaks the rules of physics.


does it? ;)

lets try a simple experiment.
can a dead man stand by himself...If not why not?
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:29 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I don't know why this is so hard for some folks to grasp.
It's just sensitivity and mechanics.


+1 ;)
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:46 pm

Jaysus wept...


Watch the video in 1/4 speed, look at where the student goes flying and hopping, but watch Master Liu instead of the student. 4:24 is a perfect example. It's just grasp sparrow's tail.


I feel that you assume I am new to all this tai chi lark? and haven't been around for two decades witnessing this BS again and again? In that time I have met many a hopppy hoppy or Empty Force Charlatan and crossed hands (tuishou to sanda to bare knuckle NHB) with out a single exception all were martially inept and at first opportunity resorted to the kind of brute force only to be expected from those totally unfamiliar with violence. In fairness, I've taught many a lad form Ireland's roughest estates and none of them, absolutely none of them were less than 10 times better fighters at the start of their training than these "masters" were when I crossed hands with them. My experience is not absolute for sure, and only contains much of Europe and parts of Asia, with competitive experience against people of every continent save Antarctica. Still, I cannot be absolutely sure that they all are absolutely useless. But if it came to it I wouldn't lose sleep betting the house!


Ignore the hopping, that's just neutralizing. When he applies the technique, gently, he's giving them the friendly angle and time to react. It's similar to the aikido falls, but less choreographed. It's a reaction. You feel intense pressure against a joint or a loss of balance and move to alleviate the pressure or regain your balance. When you've got someone sensitive staying attached and continuing to fuck with you, the reaction gets more pronounced. Master Liu gets ahead of his student and the student is stuck reacting and trying to play catchup.


I won't ignore the hopping, it most certainly is not "neutralizing". Neutralizing implies emptying, adding force to oppose a force is checking, yang against yang and not normally in accordance with tai chi principle, and certainly not where is does not lead to advantageous position as these dopes hopping back into an even more vulnerable range! "nothing is added nothing is deficient" remember? This recent "getting ahead of his student" lark? I heard it from Windy too, but he learns from a lad who "stole" his art watching an oldman in a Beijing park, so much for the classics and "oral instruction is necessary"! Lineage isn't everything, and I never need to borrow the tiger's terror, its just that well my instruction has been received through a long line of famous tai chi fighters / senior disciples, and it makes a difference, one genius might come up with the wheel, but the lads who taught me had already come up with pneumatic winter tyres, power steering, ABS, suspension the works, kinda trumps the Flintstones! Zhen Chuan and all?

Image

SO maybe the hoppy boys are practicing some martial art that to them is internal, but it ain't Tai Chi Chuan!

"Timing" has three phases in Tai Chi Theory (after the fact) where you lose, (at the same time) where the outcome is 50-50 and (before he lands) which is desired. However this too has two main types, the reactionary and the proactive- calling for the opponents force (feint - draw type stuff but much more sophisticated, more to do with internal mechanics of counter and recovery within us and the opponent and adding terrain etc. ) This is how "he strikes first but I arrive first" as the classics state "nothing to do with speed, how can an old man of 80.." We "entice him with profit and lead him to the void" ... its all actually fairly straight forward and simple, just as Wang Cheng-nan said "martial arts proceeds from the complex to the simple".

See, isolation of skills can FOR SOME SKILLS be beneficial, but for others it is disastrous. The hoppy brigade seek to isolate connection and alignment with initial contact, a big mistake as for one thing, using a predictable entry which tuishou drills are designed to do, just sows the seeds for delusion. Tuishou is fantastic when the flow is maintained and some variation is inherent and a series of limited but APT techniques can be employed, techniques and their counters, techniques that can finish an opponent not simply move him back a little to no advantage.



This is very different from seeking to isolate "interruption"and "adherence" - a general principle that should be flexible in how and where it is executed. The term "one trick pony" comes to mind.

Why?

Timing to interrupt against a limited vector can literally be done with the internal chronograph and does not reflect the necessary kinaesthetetic process of judging distance, position and timing, in tai chi terms it does not develop martially relevant "ting jin" skills! Also it isolates a critical moment that needs to be integrated with the next step "hua jin", without the unity of ting and hua (and by martially relevant "hua" I mean continuous ting and hua) one simply fixates with all the negative associations of that error! Sometimes this is called "the gap" and it would seem you train to develop exactly this sickness! Added to this, isolation neglects the internal mechanics and their whole purpose "to surge and flow like the great river" ting and hua abilities cannot be divorced from the nei gung of one's system, the internal mechanics and associated strategies and tactics. But now I am expressing a level of understanding way beyond pushy-pushy in the park.


One rough and inaccurate approximation is if you are walking up or down steps and expect there to be another step. Or if you expect the steps to be done and find there is another one. Imagine that at the exact moment you are discovering there is an additional or one less step someone flicks your right ear and pushes in the back of your weighted left knee. How do you react?


usually one collapses or at least partially collapses, I've yet to see someone start hopping repeatedly?

Or say you go to pick up a full gallon pitcher of iced tea, only it's only got a half cup of tea left in it, so you put way too much force into picking it up, and at the exact moment you make that movement upwards, somebody hits you in the bicep with a stick. What happens to the pitcher? Try punching yourself in the right bicep while you're moving as if to knock a fly off your left ear.


Ah... reflex? yes, like the knee jerk... still the nervous system does not send repeated signals to keep hopping... that requires conscious intent, even if hidden by mind-control. With the exception of nervous "ticks". But I don't think you are suggesting these chancers cause nervous ticks in their push hand partners?
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:50 pm

windwalker wrote:
Fa Xing wrote:
Man, that was so logical...I loved it.



Wow dosn't take much for you to love....

ya might want to understand who it is that some are criticizing
for pseudo science

Chuckrow has a Ph.D. in experimental physics from NYU and taught physics at NYU,
The Cooper Union, Fieldston, and other schools for forty-three years.

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

everything noted in the OP clip can be explained
if one understands the physics behind it, taken into account the
mind that holds it all together.

no this breaks the rules of physics.


does it? ;)

lets try a simple experiment.
can a dead man stand by himself...If not why not?


that's the most retarded question I have ever been asked, an I deal with mechanical engineers! Are you seriously asking why a dead animal cannot stand? you understand basic biology right? Nervous system, brain... that thing supposedly between your ears?
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:01 pm

haha...

I just clicked on that linked page from the PHD lad:

Conclusion: By controlling the force you exert on the opponent, you automatically control his force on you.


this is why no matter how smart you think you are, without relevant experience in an area one should assume ignorance! This lad has never fought... guaranteed!

If I control a flicky flicky jab - a force exerted on my opponent and he counters said flicky-flicky jab with a thunderous hook! am I controlling his "force on me"?

1 second is what it took me to piss all over that bullshit theory! 1 second!!!

edit: for the martially-challenged: replace jab with weak push and hook with drag across... only an idiot assumes "control" through general contact. That's why there are control "points"!!! I really shudder sometimes, I just cannot believe these things need to be said in a martial arts forum! Lads... lads... lads!
Last edited by Niall Keane on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:25 pm

but he learns from a lad who "stole" his art watching an oldman in a Beijing park


ya might want to check your facts if your going to say something. That "lad" as you like to say was/is a taiji bother of mine
we both learned from the same teacher..Actually I think he would like you, he's met many

Zhao attracts players from all other styles as well as beginners with little or no prior training. At 52, he does no exercise or even forms. He just pushes hands with anyone and everyone who comes by. I have seen men in their prime, twenty years younger than Zhao and twice his weight, with years and years of formal training go rolling off with big grins on their faces.

http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/sanfr ... OSHUN.html

its not about me, him or you,,,,unless your still doing a commercial. ;)

Its about what the teacher is showing and how he is doing it....
There seems to be some confusion about the reactions the students.
I thought the teacher explained it rather well.

Zhao, did have quite a following in SF btw....He's in Beijing now
going around testing different masters,,and people.

should any want to connect with him just pm me.
His English is good and likes to "test" things :)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:48 pm

windwalker wrote:
but he learns from a lad who "stole" his art watching an oldman in a Beijing park


ya might want to check your facts if your going to say something. That "lad" as you like to say was/is a taiji bother of mine
we both learned from the same teacher..Actually I think he would like you, he's met many

Zhao attracts players from all other styles as well as beginners with little or no prior training. At 52, he does no exercise or even forms. He just pushes hands with anyone and everyone who comes by. I have seen men in their prime, twenty years younger than Zhao and twice his weight, with years and years of formal training go rolling off with big grins on their faces.

http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/sanfr ... OSHUN.html

its not about me, him or you,,,,unless your still doing a commercial. ;)

Its about what the teacher is showing and how he is doing it....
There seems to be some confusion about the reactions the students.
I thought the teacher explained it rather well.

Zhao, did have quite a following in SF btw....He's in Beijing now
going around testing different masters,,and people.

should any want to connect with him just pm me.
His English is good and likes to "test" things :)


I contest that the issue is not about what the teacher is showing and how he is doing it, that's obvious, and facile, the issue is about its martial relevance! But this is getting circular now. As for testing... my door has always been open as is well known. But in my experience one is better tested against trained athletes in wrestling or sanda / mma. And there is always opportunity to do so for most people. There's plenty of footage of myself, my students, my teacher, his teacher training and fighting, only last week a video of one of my early bouts turned up on PTCCI facebook page, decades after the fact, I'd never before seen footage of that fight... it was nice to see and reminisce despite some displays of errors I'd crucify my own students for... decades later. Still its a fair reflection of my level of skill at that time. Thing is, you never, never, never get to see footage of these hoppy hoppy guys with open resistant bouts despite their professed abhorrence of rulesets, yea, yea, they're above combat sports, le bla bla habitual.... but they're always game for "testing" themselves out against poor health-hippies down the park? Where's the footage? (my traveler friends always had footage of their fights - at bog-road crossroads in rural Ireland and the likes) What does that actually say, the utter absence? What can we fairly assume from that?
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:59 pm

Where's the footage? (my traveler friends always had footage of their fights - at bog-road crossroads in rural Ireland and the likes) What does that actually say, the utter absence? What can we fairly assume from that?


dono, why not ask the same question here

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25363&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

I've used it to take apart many people. and NO... it doesn't look like that in actual use.
Training is training. It incrementally increases in stress testing.

Last..no mater who you are or what you are doing -if you don't or haven't trained to fight and have fought...then you don't know how to fight. That's a different subject.


Where's the footage?
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby Gus Mueller on Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:36 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Gus Mueller wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I love it "You've been practicing such a long time and you don't know how to make a correct palm"

So he gets to stand in the corner like a cuck while the master plays with his buddy instead.

Is anybody doubting this guy's stuff here?


While I object to the word "cuck" on general principles, and the video didn't live up to the OP's assessment of it, I did enjoy the Chinese and English subtitles, and was very impressed with the way an unknown energy propagated downward in a circular spiraling fashion in the student's body, reached the ground and rebounded up to cause him to jump.


Keep practicin, Gus, in another 30 years you might actually get some taijiquan.


Much thanks for the vote of confidence. I value your assessment.

I'm wouldn't presume to say "Niall and I" because I don't know him and he obviously can and has spoken for himself, but some of us have been spotting fake jumping like this for about 30 years. It's not difficult. "I seen vatos like you before."

Someone else raised Dr. Chuckrow's website, the one where he insists that muscles can be trained to lengthen just like they contract and that we don't know how muscles work. Consider that source before you put your eggs in his basket.
Last edited by Gus Mueller on Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wudang Neija — Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua Fighting Approach

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:14 pm

Niall Keane wrote:I feel that you assume I am new to all this tai chi lark?

No, just that you study what you study and aren't interested in much beyond that.

Ignore the hopping, that's just neutralizing. When he applies the technique, gently, he's giving them the friendly angle and time to react. It's similar to the aikido falls, but less choreographed. It's a reaction. You feel intense pressure against a joint or a loss of balance and move to alleviate the pressure or regain your balance. When you've got someone sensitive staying attached and continuing to fuck with you, the reaction gets more pronounced. Master Liu gets ahead of his student and the student is stuck reacting and trying to play catchup.


I won't ignore the hopping, it most certainly is not "neutralizing".


It certainly is neutralizing. It speaks to another rant you were on about how you don't understand that the force your opponent exerts on you is controlled by the amount of force you exert on them. It's a plain demonstration of the basic, fundamental taijiquan concept of neutralization. Yield to incoming force in order to limit the amount of effect it has on your body. If you run out of room to neutralize, hopping is a way to make more room. It doesn't always work.

"Timing" has three phases in Tai Chi Theory (after the fact) where you lose, (at the same time) where the outcome is 50-50 and (before he lands) which is desired.
....
But now I am expressing a level of understanding way beyond pushy-pushy in the park.


I'm sure that you posses complete knowledge of the intricacies of the possible expressions of taijiquan and there is nothing more you can learn.

My own imperfect understanding, based on my own limited experience with people trying to hurt me, is that the skills demonstrated here are the bread and butter of the taijiquan I practice, and I have used these skills against armed and unarmed individuals and groups who have had a sincere desire to do me harm.

I can't claim to posses the degree of refinement displayed here, but I can at least see it.

One rough and inaccurate approximation is if you are walking up or down steps and expect there to be another step. Or if you expect the steps to be done and find there is another one. Imagine that at the exact moment you are discovering there is an additional or one less step someone flicks your right ear and pushes in the back of your weighted left knee. How do you react?


usually one collapses or at least partially collapses, I've yet to see someone start hopping repeatedly?

Or say you go to pick up a full gallon pitcher of iced tea, only it's only got a half cup of tea left in it, so you put way too much force into picking it up, and at the exact moment you make that movement upwards, somebody hits you in the bicep with a stick. What happens to the pitcher? Try punching yourself in the right bicep while you're moving as if to knock a fly off your left ear.


Ah... reflex? yes, like the knee jerk... still the nervous system does not send repeated signals to keep hopping... that requires conscious intent, even if hidden by mind-control. With the exception of nervous "ticks". But I don't think you are suggesting these chancers cause nervous ticks in their push hand partners?


I'm not suggesting anything, I'm stating quite plainly that the effects of properly applied nei jin are highly disorienting.

It's an example of lie jin, the "hopping repeatedly" was also documented in stories of the early Yang masters, it's one of the uses of the lotus root metaphor.

As a bouncer, when I put my hands on someone they would light up like a live wire. Whether trying to get away or trying to come in against me they were just stuck on the surface of my bubble and I would walk them where I wanted them to go and release them. The "four character secret transmission" isn't just flowery bullshit. Didn't matter how big or athletic they were, it was all the same. One of the wildest ever, actually, was a scrawny kid about 20 or so that I restrained and escorted myself and handed over to five cops who wound up kicking one of them in the face.

It's spontaneous, complete mastery over the opponent and the situation.It's dealer's choice as far as what you do with the opponent once you've got them in that bubble. Bounce em away, throw them down hard, walk them gently, whatever. I never even needed to hurt anyone, I just made them do what I wanted and let them cuss me and call me a pussy from the sidewalk afterwards. It was up to me how much and in what direction they "bounced" when I released them and whether or not they kept standing.

So I do believe in these methods and their martial applicability because I've felt and can use them. I've been out of commission for seven years and have a bit of shape to get back in to. With a year of training to get back to a solid base conditioning level I'd be willing to work with you or anyone else here to demonstrate these skills under pressure.

I can't send it through a balloon, and I can't explain it in a way that would pass muster in a physics journal, but I can damn sure do it.
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