Single Whip - Every Part of the buffallo

[transit]

Hello all,
I was an inner circle student of Xinyi Meditation GM David Chan and am also a good friend of the student receiving Fajin from our master in the clip. BION he was not propelling himself backward and I myself have been thrown with that kind of force by M. Chan.
We used to practice without the cushion and would have to break fall (so to speak) against the concrete wall and were grateful for the padding... That is until M. Chan discovered that this actually helped him unload more on his poor students.
Back to lurking,
Tristan

[cloudz]

Charles, that's how the drill works. Are we here to judge if that's a god or bad thing. A good or bad practice method. A real or fake phenomena ? Of course if you push into a tree you propel yourself back. If you are 'the tree'; Adding to this force directed at you with your own force and perhaps even borrowing creates this enhanced effect.

Part of the training then is to remain unmoved by the incoming force, like the tree. But unlike the tree absorb and project too. This kind of wall training was common practice in the Yang family I understand. I can see it as a nice way to train issuing force, which I really don't have a problem with.

I was questioning this clip when it came out, somewhat like you are. And yes he is pushing himself off the guy, because trying to push the guy is part of the drill and basically that's what happens when you (try) push something you can't move.

I wouldn't call that clip fake, I think that would be wrong. But it is compliant and contrived perhaps just like about every co-operative and compliant martial drill on the planet. The questions that matter are what are the uses of it, and what can we derive from training like that, and how can it or would it fit with our other training.

However I think it's absolutely right to remove the mystery from it, it's no great mystery where the force is coming from and shouldn't be..

[Finny]

Hi Tristan - thanks for your post. There was a thread on that clip when it was posted a few years ago.

I guess we can agree to disagree, that's no problem. The sure sign for me is the way in which the student in red continues with the over acting AFTER he bounces off the mat. You can see it clearly (from memory, at about 1:34) when he bounces off the mat, and flails his arms around, trying to make it look more dramatic than it need be. The over acting has him looking like a bollywood stuntman (or soccer player).

The pushes are clearly legitimate, as noted by others here, but the reaction is exaggerated by the student.

[cloudz]

It's interesting because the feeder has great control of the reaction and what they do with it, because he is in control of the level of force he feeds, where and when. Embellishment can be a fine line, and once you start creating reactions through feeding of your own force the lines of your own creation and embellishment can get blurry.

[transit]

Thank you Finny for your courteous post. You are a gent.

[windwalker]

Hello all,
I was an inner circle student of Xinyi Meditation GM David Chan and am also a good friend of the student receiving Fajin from our master in the clip. BION he was not propelling himself backward and I myself have been thrown with that kind of force by M. Chan.
We used to practice without the cushion and would have to break fall (so to speak) against the concrete wall and were grateful for the padding... That is until M. Chan discovered that this actually helped him unload more on his poor students.
Back to lurking,
Tristan

just clarifying my observation
This is what I see, and have felt from others...who can do the same things
as well as what others noted with me in working with them.

I think you may have misunderstood.
Its not that they are "propelling" themselves as much as they are following themselves.
The question some might have is what are they following, why and how...

To test this idea ask him to look away next time and see what happens.
The force you and others felt is coming from your self. A good way to check
this is to see if one feels the force at the point of contact. Or is it an over all
feeling of force.

How its done and directed is what some are questioning
and find hard to understand in watching the clip.

The teacher in the clip seems quite skilled, you and the other students
are lucky to be able to study from him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ttVm3Gig1E

another example of some of the same ideas used and demoed.

[charles]

Charles, that's how the drill works. Are we here to judge if that's a god or bad thing. A good or bad practice method...However I think it's absolutely right to remove the mystery from it, it's no great mystery where the force is coming from and shouldn't be..

It isn't my intention to judge whether it is a good thing or a bad thing and I have not made a value judgement in my responses. I've simply attempted to understand/explain what I see.

Brief Recap:

Oragami_itto started this thread by posting videos of Adam Mizner. After some bickering, Mathew (Mr. Toes) posted an evaluation of what is shown in the videos stating, "No real use of spiral power, just decent peng with linear force and good presentation skills."

In response to that, littlepanda wrote, "Would like to know if the teacher is using spiral power or linear power during fajin in this clip. fajin starts after 1:00 min", and posting the clip of David Chan.

In response to the question, I stated the following:

1. That depends upon what you mean by "spiral power".

2. Does it matter? He clearly has some skills, whether "spiral" or not.

3. Newton's Third Law: the student's response - how hard he hits the wall - is disproportionate to the amount of force being used by the teacher to propel him. While, clearly, humans are not in-elastic bodies colliding, still, where does that additional force come from?

In response to my point 3., Oragami_itto stated, "Luoxuan". I asked him what he meant by that and how that accomplished point 3. He provided an answer, though I didn't find it "sufficient". David (Windwalker) provided an interesting video of a different explanation of point 3, not involving "luoxuan", but not clearly applicable to what was being discussed, the video demonstration of David Chan. He also suggested an alternate mechanism, that of interaction with a sphere.

I suggested the simple explanation was that the student in the David Chan video was "helping" by propelling himself backward at the wall, adding to the force being applied by David Chan.

Transit, an inner circle student of David Chan's, stated that, "...he [the student in the video] was not propelling himself backward." You stated, "And yes he is pushing himself off the guy, because trying to push the guy is part of the drill and basically that's what happens when you (try) push something you can't move." Finny added, "The pushes are clearly legitimate, as noted by others here, but the reaction is exaggerated by the student."

So, there you have it: complete consensus, as usual.

Thanks all, for your contributions to the discussion - particularly Transit, with his first-hand experience, and cloudz with his explanation of what and why.

Back to the discussion of Adam Mizner, single whip and where ever else the discussion goes.

[cloudz]

Indeed how could we possibly not agree, lol.

Seeing as there's been a fair bit of discussion about hopping on RSF lately. I just thought I would mention that often people accuse folks of propelling themselves with their own legs or feet. If that were the case, it seems fair to conclude that it's a fake response for all intents and purposes. Pushing yourself off a practice partner and or teacher through your arms can be considered a legit training method in my opinion as long as your intent is there to push them off rather than merely yourself.

I'm fairly sure that the teacher is timing his issuing with the received connected force. I like the look of the teacher and think his force probably is disproportional in what it looks like in his movement in comparison to what is felt. At the same time to bounce people in that way they need be in a certain state. Some people may not even recognise the way they partake in their own propulsion. But they certainly do in these kind of set ups. Mr. Chan (RIP) looked skilled and powerful.

[origami_itto]

It's just mass and acceleration...

Here's a "re-load", by the original poster, of the video in which some of the actions are slowed down. As you suggested, watch it at 1/4 speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvAJ-vhA728

What I see is a relatively small, mostly linear force (push) being applied and a disproportionately large reaction: more force coming out than going in. I don't see much in the way of mechanical advantage being applied, hence, my question, "Where does the added force come from?"

As it says in the classics, "seek the straight in the curved and the curved in the straight". There is a world of difference between what is externally visible, what is felt internally, and the actual mechanics of the movements.

If one were in an elementary physics class, one would draw a "free body diagram" in which one identifies the forces being applied to and from each inelastic "body". That the motions within the "body" are - or are not - spiral in nature is irrelevant. Force is force; as a vector quantity, it has a magnitude and a direction. It doesn't matter how the force is generated: only the magnitude and direction matter. It would be just as relevant to say a force is produced by magic within the body and that force is applied to the opponent. You can replace the word "magic" with whatever word you like - qi, jin, li, yi, luoxuan, chan si, - as it doesn't alter the net result.

The body can be used in a variety of ways to produce that force, but, in the end, it comes down to magnitude and direction. If the guy pushing pushes with a force "X" and the guy being pushed hits the wall with a force of "X + Y", where does "Y" come from? If one guy uses "luoxuan" (spiralling actions of various body parts) to produce 100 lb of force, and another guy uses some other "non-spiralling" body mechanic to produce 100 lb of force, they are both producing 100 lb of force.

Correct! 100lbs of force is 100lbs of force. We're hopefully talking about orders of a thousand pounds or more.

Here's an external example of spiraling force.

Note that the kicks and punches start from the feet and the rest of the body rotates around that pivot point. That is spiraling power.


I can't speak for anyone else, but what I'm training is to shrink the visible circles involved in generating that power until they are invisible and I can generate the same amount of force without visible external movement as I can with a huge visible windup. This is the internal part of the internal arts.

The science behind it is deceptively simple. You train the muscles, movement, and weight shifts in the large and open frame. You train out all of the extraneous musculature that is impeding the movement. You maintain the same muscle sequences and weight shifts as you train smaller and smaller movements. As you approach perfection there is less and less visible movement, but the same muscles are firing and the same weight shifts are occurring, hence the same power is still being expressed. The actual movement may only be fractions of an inch, but the power is fully realized.

Another way to look at it is like the newton's cradle. The point of contact and what we see externally is the second to last ball hanging in the row. The energy we're generating is the ball falling towards the row, and the opponent is the ball that flies away.

It seems to me, there are two possible types of answers. The first is that Y=0, that is, the guy pushing is pushing WAY harder than it appears, so that the amount of force he is pushing with is what the guy is hitting the wall with. (Based on the sound made when the guy hits the wall, and his reaction, the guy hits the wall with considerable force.)

The second is to provide a reasonable explanation of where the added force comes from - who is generating it? In other words, where does "Y" come from? What is its origin? I think the answer is probably pretty simple: it isn't necessary to invoke second order partial differential equations to provide that answer.

There's another bit of additional force that I purposefully left out to keep from confusing things, but since it's been mentioned already, why the hell not.

As mentioned, the student is pushing against the teacher. None of it would work without some resistance for the force to "catch" on. The early stages of training are to remove that resistance in our own structure so the force doesn't "catch" on that and destroy our structure and balance. The next stage of training is learning to identify it in our partners and use it as we would the handle of a weapon to grab onto and manipulate them.

If the student's root is weaker than the teacher's as the teacher expresses his force, then the student's push just adds to the backwards momentum of his own body.

The amount of force involved is then equal to the sum of both of their forces. If the student's root is strong it becomes force against force and you get greater potential for mutual injury. If the student's root is broken, then the force escapes the system to his rear, taking his body with it, and leaving very little in the teacher's body.

[jim]

cloudz

I'm not sure one could always categorise it as a 'fake' response in that it was consciously pre-meditated.

I've not trained with any of the people we've seen on this thread - I would certainly like to - but I've been involved in CMA since 1978 and much of my post full contact training has been with the Huang Shen Shyan/Sia Mock Tie people in SIngapore so I've been around the block a couple of times.

This year I had the pleasure of doing a workshop with Luo Dexiu.

I saw more than a few participants throwing themselves at this workshop, although they seemed to genuinely think it was via a transmission of something. Strangely enough, myself (half Asian) and another teacher (Asian) were also able to propel people through the air and make them stumble away.

I have never, in all my years, been shown how to do this - energetically or otherwise. And yet, there I was, making people bounce away from me, only to come back shaking their heads asking how I was doing it. My asian partner in crime - same thing.

Asian sorcery. Must be.

I could see Luo getting pissed off with these responses, so much so that eventually he just ignored the people who were reacting. One of them said to me later that Luo's power was greater than mine, but I was also very good and it was good he had me to practice with because Luo obviously didn't want to cause him damage.

Luo DID make people move, with structural manipulation, but aside from the kangaroos, nobody reacted like the people in these clips. If people fell to the ground, it was as a result of a throw. If people stumbled backward, it was because he'd stepped in and taken their space.

I was left a little dumbfounded that some people arrived with such a strong expectation which they managed to fulfill themselves when given the opportunity. I've seen similar in Singapore, but the teachers and seniors there tended to play it up a little - Luo was just getting tired and angry.

[charles]

...my question, "Where does the added force come from?"

As it says in the classics, "seek the straight in the curved and the curved in the straight". There is a world of difference between what is externally visible, what is felt internally, and the actual mechanics of the movements.

Sure, but none of that directly addresses in any practical way the question I asked.

Here's an external example of spiraling force.

Note that the kicks and punches start from the feet and the rest of the body rotates around that pivot point. That is spiraling power.

If one turns one's palm over or reaches to pick up a cup of coffee, it is "spiral" motion. Spiral motion, per se, isn't "special", but, rather, found in everyday actions.

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I'm training is to shrink the visible circles involved in generating that power until they are invisible and I can generate the same amount of force without visible external movement as I can with a huge visible windup. This is the internal part of the internal arts.

What training are you using to "shrink the visible circles involved in generating that power"?

The science behind it is deceptively simple. You train the muscles, movement, and weight shifts in the large and open frame. You train out all of the extraneous musculature that is impeding the movement. You maintain the same muscle sequences and weight shifts as you train smaller and smaller movements. As you approach perfection there is less and less visible movement, but the same muscles are firing and the same weight shifts are occurring, hence the same power is still being expressed. The actual movement may only be fractions of an inch, but the power is fully realized.

I'm not sure I'd describe that as "science", but certainly it's a methodology.

There are other mechanisms that can be used to generate power. One of these, for example, is to use momentum.

It's important, I think, to realize that there are two general categories of skills, one related to producing lots of power/force, the other related to being very, very soft. The first one is pretty accessible; the second one not so easily.

Another way to look at it is like the newton's cradle. The point of contact and what we see externally is the second to last ball hanging in the row. The energy we're generating is the ball falling towards the row, and the opponent is the ball that flies away.

I think this has been previously discussed. Newton's cradle is an example of the principle of conservation of momentum. Momentum, by definition is mass times velocity. Unless you are moving your mass - up, down, forward or back - there isn't any momentum to transfer to the opponent. So, the smaller your motions get, the less momentum plays a role. Also, humans aren't inelastic balls and don't behave like the balls in Newton's cradle.

As mentioned, the student is pushing against the teacher. None of it would work without some resistance for the force to "catch" on. The early stages of training are to remove that resistance in our own structure so the force doesn't "catch" on that and destroy our structure and balance. The next stage of training is learning to identify it in our partners and use it as we would the handle of a weapon to grab onto and manipulate them.

Sure, but that still doesn't address my question. Once you've grabbed onto your partner and manipulated them by pushing them with force "X", they'll move away with force "X", not force "X" + "Y".

If the student's root is weaker than the teacher's as the teacher expresses his force, then the student's push just adds to the backwards momentum of his own body.

The amount of force involved is then equal to the sum of both of their forces.

If the timing is right, sure. If not, it isn't. It isn't so much about "rooting" as it is about timing.

There is a partner drill in which A pushes his partner B. As A pushes, B intercepts the push by meeting it with equal - not greater - force. By altering the timing, it goes from force on force to A pushing - bouncing - himself away from B. Most people can learn to do that in the exercise within a few minutes.

If the student's root is strong it becomes force against force and you get greater potential for mutual injury.

In some circumstances, sure. But, there are also other strategies, such as "disappearing" - providing no structure against which to push - as the student applies his force.

[mrtoes]

matthew,

would like to know if the teacher is using spiral power or linear power during fajin in this clip. fajin starts after 1:00 min.

Hi there,

I can't see exactly what Mr Chan is up to here but he looks like he has some skills. Lots of power with small movements. Not too much excessive student hopping going on (it's set up for a demo but dude is genuinely getting repeatedly twatted against the wall). Enjoyed that, thanks for posting!

Matthew

[windwalker]

I saw more than a few participants throwing themselves at this workshop, although they seemed to genuinely think it was via a transmission of something. Strangely enough, myself (half Asian) and another teacher (Asian) were also able to propel people through the air and make them stumble away.

I don't know what being "half Asian" or not has anything to do with it,,,as in another thread some one mentioned "inscrutable" would you also say your "inscrutable" too.

I have never, in all my years, been shown how to do this - energetically or otherwise. And yet, there I was, making people bounce away from me, only to come back shaking their heads asking how I was doing it. My asian partner in crime - same thing.

wow,,,must be an Asian thing....Anyway I can show most people how its done and lay the theory and ground work behind it...Most "Asian" or not get it.
Its a skill set. Quite explainable using physics.

Whether it's the focus of ones practice or not depends on the practice and teachers level of skill or teachers intent of practice.
What is taught in a closed setting may not be in an open one.
People who are more sensitive to it maybe able to feel something that others even those doing it may not feel or even understand. In this case it looks like the latter.

I once practiced with a n-mantis group headed by a famous teacher...In doing the drills I could feel the direction of where people where going and went with what I felt. While it was effective and did unbalance them it was not inline with what this teacher wanted to teach...

He told me very directly not to do it that way. This meant that I had to essentially work against my own feeling or senses. In essence adopt bad habits...At that time I knew I could no longer continue to practice other things beside taiji....Basic ideas and concepts just too different.

It sounds like the teacher mentioned also ran into the same problems and dealt with them in the same way.

[C.J.W.]

I've been launched in the air many times by both my Fujian White Crane and Bagua teachers, and can say with certainty that I wasn't being a dive bunny, and my responses were genuine.

Based on what I've been taught and experienced, the key to making an opponent hop or fly back is not really about how much force you can generate. It has more to do with the ability to manipulate human beings' natural instinct to remain standing when feeling unbalanced.

When the center of gravity is moved beyond the base of support, we naturally begin to adjust our balance, usually by taking a step, to remain stable. At the hands of an expert who is able to precisely (and rapidly) affect the opponent's COG, a step can become a hop or even a dramatic jump, and it doesn't take a lot of effort at all. My White Crane teacher was in his 90s when I trained with him. As a frail old man, he was still able to toss me around like a rag doll with seemingly light taps.

In other words, the dramatic results we see in PH demos by master-level teachers? It's actually the partners that are doing most of the work.

[jim]

I saw more than a few participants throwing themselves at this workshop, although they seemed to genuinely think it was via a transmission of something. Strangely enough, myself (half Asian) and another teacher (Asian) were also able to propel people through the air and make them stumble away.

I don't know what being "half Asian" or not has anything to do with it,,,as in another thread some one mentioned "inscrutable" would you also say your "inscrutable" too.


wow,,,must be an Asian thing....Anyway I can show most people how its done and lay the theory and ground work behind it...Most "Asian" or not get it.
Its a skill set. Quite explainable using physics.

Windwalker - I think you misunderstood my meaning.

At this seminar there was Luo (Asian) myself (very Asian features for a halfie) and another Asian participant. It seemed to me that a few of the other participants had the expectation that, simply because we looked Asian, we were the ones who 'had ability' - which is very far from the truth. And yet - when paired with one of us three, these people seemed to experience some great transmission of energy that caused them to go bouncing away. They were obviously fulfilling their own expectations.

I wasn't doing anything. I don't know how to. The other guy, he wasn't doing anything either. We were both pretty bemused. Luo was just getting irritated.

I have to say, while I really enjoyed the chance to experience Luo Dexiu, it kind of put me off the seminar style a bit. All I wanted to do was work on applying what we'd been shown. It wasn't possible to do with when paired with one of these 'sensitives' who'd just propel themselves away whenever we made contact.