Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Bao on Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:07 pm

Drake wrote:Bao: Your experience is suspect, at best. Floating root is common/taught in liuhebafa. It's also taught in hsing-i, bagua, and taiji. If you have no knowledge of it you have no knowledge. Only stance, dance, and pose.

Gus: Good pick up on Choi sifu's demo, and David/Bao's bullshit.As you said it's not a "hop" it's a demonstration that the kid is pretty well connected. *WHOLE* body connectivity. Choi sifu adjust his stance to demonstrate a fraction of the "steel" in lhbf. You don't punch with your arm, leg, or torso, but *EVERYTHING* IN UNISON*, and instantly relax to a "one" state. ((from one to ten with ten being contact/strike))


Maybe I didn't get my point across... :-\ I am not arguing about whole body connection and that everything should be connected. I thought your earlier post was interesting and had it's point. The student shows good "connection", I haven't disagreed with that. But IMO, connection without deep rooting feels a bit one dimensional. IME, good rooting skill should prevent this kind of sharp, instant pushes to affect your feet from disconnecting from the ground. Dynamic or floating rooting shouldn't matter. If you have developed roots, you have developed roots regardless how you chose to use it. In my own opinion, my experience about rooting is pretty good. But my understanding of this demo might lack. At least, I don't understand the point of it. If you don't agree with me or think that you have better understanding of this is fine.

Of course, I could be wrong and I am always happy to acknowledge if I am. I don't have that kind of prestige that I must always be right. If you really want to discuss and educate someone about something where someone's knowledge or experience lack... then I can't really see the point trying to provoke the subject with passive-aggressive attacks. It's not the way you usually handle disagreements. I think you are much better than that.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Gus Mueller on Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:16 pm

Bao wrote:
Gus Mueller wrote: Bao, I've never met you, but assuming you've got two normal human legs this demo would work on you, your teacher, your teacher's teacher, his teacher, Jesus Christ, etc. even when administered by a random untrained person.


Ok then... :-\ Anyway, it would be fun to try it. :)


If you can find another human being, and I have it on good authority that there are more than a few on this planet, you CAN effing try it. My prediction is that you will not, based on your idea that people need lessons to learn to hop or jump backwards.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Bao on Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:26 pm

Gus Mueller wrote: My prediction is that you will not, based on your idea that people need lessons to learn to hop or jump backwards.


Sometimes I wonder why people here want to join a discussion board when they seem totally uninterested in what other people write or seem to repeatedly misunderstand just for the fun of it. :P

I've always said just the opposite. That hopping is nothing that is taught. I have also said that I have never practiced it and would not know how to teach it. :-\
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Gus Mueller on Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:33 pm

Bao wrote:
Gus Mueller wrote: My prediction is that you will not, based on your idea that people need lessons to learn to hop or jump backwards.


Sometimes I wonder why people here want to join a discussion board when they seem totally uninterested in what other people write or seem to repeatedly misunderstand just for the fun of it. :P

I've always said just the opposite. That hopping is nothing that is taught. I have also said that I have never practiced it and would not know how to teach it. :-\


Bao wrote:
Gus Mueller wrote:If you can't jump backwards like the guy does in seconds 25-30 (look at it in slomo) there's something physically wrong with you.


Ok you're the expert, show me how to jump backwards then. :P


Bao wrote:
Look at seconds 25-30 and watch the student not hopping but jumping backwards like he thinks he's fighting in a kungfu movie. It's completely under his conscious control, so FAKE.


I can only repeat myself: I could never hop backwards like this student all by myself. I can't see how it's virtually possible to hop (or jump) backwards without a great deal of help from someone else.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Bao on Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:47 pm

And your point is?

:/
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:49 pm

"...With out a great deal of help from someone else", kind of like a tap from someone who knows exactly how your structure is lined up, who has just the level of skill to strike into the structure without crushing it, allowing it to bounce back to its original position. This is rooting at its best, were that root not dynamic , say if one was fighting and maintained his rooting the way you describe it, one with such an understanding would have the ability to strike into that root and crush the structure. The speed and precision and with which Master Choi performs this demo is acute, the force is slight. to train this understanding , I will reiterate, is learning to change on contact, this is a fighting skill not for push hands, it trains recognition of force and its direction.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:03 pm

This is a good demo by a guy who knows how the body works
He starts out by using the students Nervous energy to fake him out and moves on to more physical aspects
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Gus Mueller on Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:This is a good demo by a guy who knows how the body works
He starts out by using the students Nervous energy to fake him out and moves on to more physical aspects


Partial credit. It looks like a flinch but if you slow the video down (as you should) you can see that Wai or Choi or whoever does actually hit the student's fist on the first one.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:17 pm

Always interesting reading the comments

No one has addressed why the teachers body moves back when the student doesn't move or moves less so?
why does he or the student move, or sometimes both ?;)

Notice when ever the movement happens the amplitude seems to be the same as the input force
used.

No one has mentioned the angle of the teachers hand or speed of movement
as he taps the student ?

I think many here should be able to do a demo like this providing they understand whats being done, and how.
Its something for those I work with they pick up within a couple of hrs....
Working it into ones nervous system as a natural way of doing things might take a while.

Why is it useful or not depends on ones practice.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Niall Keane on Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:40 pm

see, I just can't fathom why a martial artist would want to lose connection "automatically" with the ground through a hop and so lose control? A dynamic root should move around, yes, but be maintained, certainly it is skillful to make it "APPEAR" to disappear to the opponent but going all pseudo-science-quantum about it and having it hop around the place, actually disappearing and appearing is ridiculous!

You are fools to believe that a decent fighter wont discover how to "hop" you around the room if you are pre-programmed to do this, a decent fighter is surgical in application and trained to constantly test and record the results in real time, and if it was me, like many others I know, I'd use that gap in control to devastating effect!

Perhaps I already have, I recall wrestling some lad in a Danish Open over a decade ago who managed to "float" out of throws and hop/ float out of applied resistance (pushes would be too simplistic a description), I had assumed he knew some sort of Qing Gung, well, I simply changed tactic from clean throw and remaining on my feet to throwing both of us and controlling it so I landed on him with elbows or shoulders... that ended his game! he was devastated and easily thrown around the place subsequently, I guess I "disconnected" him? ;-)

My understanding of dynamic rooting and dynamic balance etc. which all play together, is that its about transfer, or "hua jin" with use of movement and alignments, sneaky steps and lots of trips if you are good enough too, but it flies in the face of nei jia, and certainly the Wu Styles I'm familiar with of Tai Chi Chuan to have exploitable "gaps" no matter how short lived they seem. I've never seen Eddie Wu hopping around, I know Bruce Franstis bases his martial art around exploiting the opponent's "gaps" (on many levels) and my own style would frown on sacrificing structure and such a hop being initiated by the opponent and leading to a position not predetermined nor necessarily advantageous.

I guess there is a reason you just dont see this in combat sports save when we watch a dominated party being shoved and/ or hit back and controlled.

In fairness we get to see a snipet of information and for all I know this could be about demonstrating exactly the weaknesses I've outlined?

But I think it fair to suppose, given the weight of recent threads showing far more contrived hopping (to be fair) that the agenda for posting such is to seek legitimacy for such practice, mind you never by offering an example of the why and how in anything remotely martially relevant and unambiguous. It kinda stinks of snake oil then.

Is it really too much to ask for a rational set of clips?

Clip 1: this is the training method
Clip 2: this is the application under pressure

How hard is that? If you present something unusual it is not "incumbent" on the observer to accept extraordinary claims and seek out people and methods of validation, quite the opposite, rationally it is required of the proposer to provide clear and satisfactory explanation. It should be noted that the plural of anecdote is not evidence, otherwise we are in danger of accepting a naked emperor is finely dressed. This debate has raged now on RSF for over a decade and never has even remotely plausible evidence been produced, the schools that ascribe to this hoppy tai chi are unified in their inability to produce recognized fighters, or any evidence of such. Surely if such existed it would have been used to accompany the hard to believe hops? In the end, its hard not to view this as Tai Chi's version of internet's "become a millionaire in a few weeks with "zero effort" scams. And Gung Fu does draw those "types" seeking magic ways to overnight mastery, those "types" who shun the Boxing or MMA gym as beneath their intellectual consideration and assume "secret (intellectual) knowledge" of some obscure and largely irrelevant detail, often an isolated instant of bread and butter fighting, utterly transmogrified from a valid basic element into a disjointed from action, and divorced form reality, sickness of fixation. The fixation is evidenced so often by the failure of those on such poisoned paths to traverse from the imaginary world of the intellect to the physical world of combat. Like, I've met countless numbers of these "types" in the jianghu, and when competing against them or watching them compete against others the story is always the same, utterly inept, devoid of skill, like week one beginners who never involved themselves in any sport ever. crude, clumsy and quick to resort to retard-strength. For sure, I could be the statistical anomaly, like Pratchett's "Diskworld" and my life has just happened on all the useless gobshites and none of the lads who have "it"?

One is logically required to use Occam's razor no?

and the "emptying" of devastating force is simply bullshit, one should be well able to rotate and divert forces with every major part of the body, even the head, like every half-decent western boxer can, and NOT lose positional advantage. Seven -Star Step in Tai Chi Chuan and the idea of each step creating advantage, and similarly "lead-foot dominance" in western boxing are whole basic requirements of biblical importance in fighting. Floating, hoping, bouncing (not dancing) precludes skill in such area, the gaps, the micro-seconds lacking 100% control (freely offered up) kill such commanding ability. It just contradicts the nature of fighting to pre-programme in an autonomic response so lacking of control and also, lets be honest, awareness! Position, angle, range requires the mind (Yi) to be crystal about it, no sleep-walking, no gaps, no auto-pilot. "Ting jin" must evaporate in the hop.

Of course my better judgement tells me these points will be ignored or glossed over, certainly not dealt with through credible example, my experience on this forum has shown most of the "woo brigade" lack the martial experience to understand fundamental basics and so to realise how "incredible" their speil presents itself, I'll probably be presented with a list of vouching parties or other dudes up to the same lark to one degree or another. I know from recent PMs that many with verifiable relevant martial experience lurk here but have the good sense not to cast pearls before swine. Perhaps I love Nai jia Chuan too much and seek to make a statement or two for the record, so future generations might not label all Nei Jia alongside the Anit-vax Tin-Hat crew of our times?

Like why lads, just why cant you give, just what average joe with slight combat sport experience martial artist might demand, a reasonably credible explanation with video example of it utilised under pressure? And if not why can't you refrain from embarrassing the whole of the Nei Jia Chuan world with incredibly fantastic claims? You are killing the arts! and making them the legitimate butt of jokes.

You claim these types of demos are for "insiders", but they are not, hell these videos are not kept in a closed student group but published on the web for all to see. Even before the net, I've been at such demos for over 20 years, presented to the general public with "masters" pushing lines of students who fly off in uncoordinated, mistimed fakery. Watched students hopped into walls with mats placed to enhance the slapping sound of impact rather than for protection.

What young lad could watch these parodies of Woo and decide "that's for me!" and without the young, the art is doomed! I look at old photos of legitimate schools of Tai Chi and I see teenagers and young adults, today most students seem to be pensioners? Its not that the "youth of today" are lazy etc. They are part of the biggest martial arts revolution of our times - MMA. They train, even as amateurs twice a day, 6 days a week, watch their diet and nutrition like professional boxers. But this hoppy hop nonsense demands, that should they even consider Nei Jia, or even Gung Fu, they must first suspend their reason and pretend they never did basic science, physics or biology in school. And even with the most open mind in the world, bordering on the gullible, should they visit a forum like this dedicated to Nei Jia, what are they greeted with? Evidence and example correcting their initial perception and offering credible reasoning? No!!! No fecking way pal! The onus is on them to seek out the "real", and then they'll "understand".

I mean if you want to kill an art, there's no better way, dilute its efficacy among oceans of fantastically incredible parlor tricks.

As someone once posted on this forum:

真假, 假真 Zhen jia, jia zhen (What's real has become fake, now what's fake has become real.)
Last edited by Niall Keane on Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:56 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Gus Mueller on Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:54 pm

Niall Keane wrote:...You claim these types of demos are for "insiders", but they are not, hell these videos are not kept in a closed student group but published on the web for all to see. Even before the net, I've been at such demos for over 20 years, presented to the general public with "masters" pushing lines of students who fly off in uncoordinated, mistimed fakery. Watched students hopped into walls with mats placed to enhance the slapping sound of impact rather than for protection.

What young lad could watch these parodies of Woo and decide "that's for me!" and without the young, the art is doomed! I look at old photos of legitimate schools of Tai Chi and I see teenagers and young adults, today most students seem to be pensioners? Its not that the "youth of today" are lazy etc. They are part of the biggest martial arts revolution of our times - MMA. They train, even as amateurs twice a day, 6 days a week, watch their diet and nutrition like professional boxers. But this hoppy hop nonsense demands, that should they even consider Nei Jia, or even Gung Fu, they must first suspend their reason and pretend they never did basic science, physics or biology in school. And even with the most open mind in the world, bordering on the gullible, should they visit a forum like this dedicated to Nei Jia, what are they greeted with? Evidence and example correcting their initial perception and offering credible reasoning? No!!! No fecking way pal! The onus is on them to seek out the "real", and then they'll "understand".

I mean if you want to kill an art, there's no better way, dilute its efficacy among oceans of fantastically incredible parlor tricks.

As someone once posted on this forum:

真假, 假真 Zhen jia, jia zhen (What's real has become fake, now what's fake has become real.)


Niall,

Excellent post, really long so I hope you'll forgive me for only quoting part of it. I have taken the liberty of bolding parts that I thought deserve special attention and repetition and repetition and repetition and repetition and repetition and repetition and repetition . Let's look at this Wai Lun Choi video, which is sold as a "chi demo". In reality it's a reflex demo. You and one of your students or you and one of your pub buddies could duplicate it in 10 minutes. Not because you're so skilled or your pub buddy is so skilled, but because of the way the human body is constructed. It's all reflexes, which is why the student only jumps once and why he only jumps an inch or two. The student in this one video is not faking. Watch when WLC bends over to chop at the knee. That's the goddam patellar reflex plain as day. He gives the game away here. Switch the roles and he'd be jumping, because he has a human body. If you try it, your student will be able to make you jump. Guaranteed. Just like you kick out your lower leg in the doctor's office when he hits your knee with his mallet.

This one video is real, but sold in a fake way. All the other hopping videos are fake, fake, fake, sold in a fake, fake, fake way.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby origami_itto on Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:25 pm

I'll just say that if anyone questions the validity of Grandmaster Wai Lun Choi's fighting or teaching ability, one merely needs to present themselves to him or any number of his students and ask directly.

GM Choi one of top 5 in the world.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:33 pm

As has always been the norm for this forum, comes the long winded and surely highly versed intellects. And as always is the case, intellect stands in the way of understanding, and knowing is clue to the clueless. Yes it is reflex, the same reflex that would be engaged in electrical shock, what is chi the ability to turn it on and off. You guys surely are high level, I must listen and learn.
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:17 am

Gus Mueller wrote:
Niall Keane wrote:...You claim these types of demos are for "insiders", but they are not, hell these videos are not kept in a closed student group but published on the web for all to see. Even before the net, I've been at such demos for over 20 years, presented to the general public with "masters" pushing lines of students who fly off in uncoordinated, mistimed fakery. Watched students hopped into walls with mats placed to enhance the slapping sound of impact rather than for protection.

What young lad could watch these parodies of Woo and decide "that's for me!" and without the young, the art is doomed! I look at old photos of legitimate schools of Tai Chi and I see teenagers and young adults, today most students seem to be pensioners? Its not that the "youth of today" are lazy etc. They are part of the biggest martial arts revolution of our times - MMA. They train, even as amateurs twice a day, 6 days a week, watch their diet and nutrition like professional boxers. But this hoppy hop nonsense demands, that should they even consider Nei Jia, or even Gung Fu, they must first suspend their reason and pretend they never did basic science, physics or biology in school. And even with the most open mind in the world, bordering on the gullible, should they visit a forum like this dedicated to Nei Jia, what are they greeted with? Evidence and example correcting their initial perception and offering credible reasoning? No!!! No fecking way pal! The onus is on them to seek out the "real", and then they'll "understand".

I mean if you want to kill an art, there's no better way, dilute its efficacy among oceans of fantastically incredible parlor tricks.

As someone once posted on this forum:

真假, 假真 Zhen jia, jia zhen (What's real has become fake, now what's fake has become real.)


Niall,

Excellent post, really long so I hope you'll forgive me for only quoting part of it. I have taken the liberty of bolding parts that I thought deserve special attention and repetition and repetition and repetition and repetition and repetition and repetition and repetition . Let's look at this Wai Lun Choi video, which is sold as a "chi demo". In reality it's a reflex demo. You and one of your students or you and one of your pub buddies could duplicate it in 10 minutes. Not because you're so skilled or your pub buddy is so skilled, but because of the way the human body is constructed. It's all reflexes, which is why the student only jumps once and why he only jumps an inch or two. The student in this one video is not faking. Watch when WLC bends over to chop at the knee. That's the goddam patellar reflex plain as day. He gives the game away here. Switch the roles and he'd be jumping, because he has a human body. If you try it, your student will be able to make you jump. Guaranteed. Just like you kick out your lower leg in the doctor's office when he hits your knee with his mallet.

This one video is real, but sold in a fake way. All the other hopping videos are fake, fake, fake, sold in a fake, fake, fake way.


Ah, I can see it's quite different from the run of the mill hoppy videos. But it is being presented as validation for such. I have no idea what the coach is training and so I have to fall back on previous clips and statements by the hoppy brigade. As such I'm asking them for valid martial reasons as to why to train and condition a fighter to hop autmonically / reflexively.
I contend such is a bad, bad idea.
If it's some sort of - lock up your body this once to get to feel of "connection" or whatever and NEVER do it in combat then fair enough, but that is not what those who practice theatrical tuishou in the park where a slight twitch sends opponents flying is about.
I'm call in out the Woo woo lads to explain their incredible claims.


As for involuntary reflexes... well... even a doctor must have a few trys with a cooperative sitting relaxed patient. It's a lot esier to have an opponent resist in one direction and switch to another empty of power and structure... lead him to the void and all. Tuishou excels at ingraining such tactics. You see all good wresters use the concept in every match Same with must thai clinch artists, sanda fighters and mma lads . Conversely you dont see spastic motions brought on by utilizing involuntary reflexes in combat sports.
I believe that some styles of tai chi, particularly some branches of yang style have been so long removed from competively testing their art that delusion has crept in. Tuishou has become the aim rather than a drill , and the default method of demonstration of perceived nei jia skill. But what works under highly compliant tuishou sututions can very well be impossible under more resistant and dynamic situations. It is quite possible that people have discovered methods of manipulating opponents that only occur within very specific And unusual body mechanics that exist in certain compliant drills. If the drill replaces combat as a true reflection of reality well... the sickness of delusion sets in and seems to become a genetic disorder of a style passed down the generations.

I could be wrong, but like I said in a decade here ive yet to see :

Clip 1 : demonstration of drill
Clip 2: video evidence of said skill in use under pressure

There is not a single drill in my style that I cannot demonstrate a martially relevent reason for. Ok within my style im permitted to have others baishi under me so i guess such must indicate a reasonable level of understanding. I appreciate that these other hop lads may be just beginner or perhaps intermediate level practitioners and so not have a complete handle on what they practice, although such raises questions as to their coaches ability. If however these lads represent a high level of "their" stylez and yet fail to deliver reasonable explanation, well then we must reasonably question what they practice, their style and whether it is in fact a martial art or like I often call it - tai chi box (ercise)?
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Re: Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

Postby origami_itto on Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:06 am

Niall Keane wrote:I mean if you want to kill an art, there's no better way, dilute its efficacy among oceans of fantastically incredible parlor tricks.


I can't speak for anyone, but I'm fairly certain that none of this was done to impress anyone. I am certain that everyone in that room is so far beyond impressed with GM Choi's skills that this is nothing more than entertaining the crowd.

And, trust me, his work in no way harms the art. As I said before, if you doubt it works under pressure, go put some pressure on him or one of his students, but I suggest you be polite about it.

As far as for why it was posted... it's to illustrate a principle. Some on the forum may ignorantly call it "mysterious invisible energy" and deny the simple mechanics obvious to the rest of us.

Did he appear to put enough force behind that slap to the fist to lift the boy's weight?
Was there any reflex action on the boy's part?

Yes, a well trained fighter would be able to make damn good use of that sort of momentary instability. My former teacher, who trains with GM Choi, could do this to me at will from a single point of contact, my hand. I was neither expecting it nor conditioned to it. He slapped my hand, my foot did it's own thing, I stumbled to regain my balance.

The martial value is obvious to me.

Attempting to intellectualize it is futile. One has to arrive at a functional understanding of qi to even start to comprehend it, and that understanding is difficult to put into words.

Qi in one aspect is the bioelectrical energy refined from Jing and refined into Shen through Taoist alchemical meditation practices.

Qi in another aspect is the intention wave that follows the Yi, leading Jin.

I do not believe that the two are the same, but in discussing them, they are often conflated and that adds a lot of confusion and skepticism. Both are based in the dantien and mobilize to the limbs.

Sending the second type of Qi into an external body, whether living or inanimate, is the functional use of taijiquan. When you grasp a weapon, your Qi infuses the weapon and it becomes a part of you. You sense the energy in the weapon and move it through space in harmony with that energy.

That sounds flaky, but grab a broadsword or Gwan Dao and start swinging it and you'll see exactly what I mean. Depending on how the weapon is constructed, it will move it certain ways more easily than others. Projecting the Qi into weapons is comparatively easy because they don't fight back, they just respond.

The same thing happens with people, but it's much more difficult. The classics refer to it as "threading the nine-bends pearl". The idea is you're trying to shove a piece of thread through a pearl with a snarled, loopy, kinked-up path like a duck's vagina. It's extremely difficult and takes a lot of careful time and attention to cultivate.

Once you've got it, though, you've achieved a completely new level of understanding and control over yourself and your opponents. This is just one example of putting it to practical use. When you can "thread the nine-bends pearl" and project your Qi completely through an opponent's structure to the floor, then you have complete mastery over them, just as you would have over a weapon.
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