Wai Lun Choi bouncing a student

[Niall Keane]

I mean if you want to kill an art, there's no better way, dilute its efficacy among oceans of fantastically incredible parlor tricks.

I can't speak for anyone, but I'm fairly certain that none of this was done to impress anyone. I am certain that everyone in that room is so far beyond impressed with GM Choi's skills that this is nothing more than entertaining the crowd.

And, trust me, his work in no way harms the art. As I said before, if you doubt it works under pressure, go put some pressure on him or one of his students, but I suggest you be polite about it.

As far as for why it was posted... it's to illustrate a principle. Some on the forum may ignorantly call it "mysterious invisible energy" and deny the simple mechanics obvious to the rest of us.

Did he appear to put enough force behind that slap to the fist to lift the boy's weight?
Was there any reflex action on the boy's part?

Yes, a well trained fighter would be able to make damn good use of that sort of momentary instability. My former teacher, who trains with GM Choi, could do this to me at will from a single point of contact, my hand. I was neither expecting it nor conditioned to it. He slapped my hand, my foot did it's own thing, I stumbled to regain my balance.

The martial value is obvious to me.

Attempting to intellectualize it is futile. One has to arrive at a functional understanding of qi to even start to comprehend it, and that understanding is difficult to put into words.

Qi in one aspect is the bioelectrical energy refined from Jing and refined into Shen through Taoist alchemical meditation practices.

Qi in another aspect is the intention wave that follows the Yi, leading Jin.

I do not believe that the two are the same, but in discussing them, they are often conflated and that adds a lot of confusion and skepticism. Both are based in the dantien and mobilize to the limbs.

Sending the second type of Qi into an external body, whether living or inanimate, is the functional use of taijiquan. When you grasp a weapon, your Qi infuses the weapon and it becomes a part of you. You sense the energy in the weapon and move it through space in harmony with that energy.

That sounds flaky, but grab a broadsword or Gwan Dao and start swinging it and you'll see exactly what I mean. Depending on how the weapon is constructed, it will move it certain ways more easily than others. Projecting the Qi into weapons is comparatively easy because they don't fight back, they just respond.

The same thing happens with people, but it's much more difficult. The classics refer to it as "threading the nine-bends pearl". The idea is you're trying to shove a piece of thread through a pearl with a snarled, loopy, kinked-up path like a duck's vagina. It's extremely difficult and takes a lot of careful time and attention to cultivate.

Once you've got it, though, you've achieved a completely new level of understanding and control over yourself and your opponents. This is just one example of putting it to practical use. When you can "thread the nine-bends pearl" and project your Qi completely through an opponent's structure to the floor, then you have complete mastery over them, just as you would have over a weapon.

I must have amazing prophetic powers... how did I know the martially relevent points I made would be skipped over?
And id be asked to seek for myself and credentials of other people would be given in lieu of reason and argument?

I'm not really interested in what you know about ducks vaginas, to each their own...

But basically your explanation is...

Because MAGIC!

[origami_itto]

I must have amazing prophetic powers... how did I know the martially relevent points I made would be skipped over?

That's how the internet works. It's called TL;DR

And id be asked to seek for myself and credentials of other people would be given in lieu of reason and argument?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your refrain "how does it work against a trained and resisting opponent"?

What better opponent to resist than yourself? You can't feel the technique on a video. If you're going to call fraud or insult someone's skill or contribution, you should be honorable enough to put your body and ego on the line to back up your accusations.

I'm not really interested in what you know about ducks vaginas, to each their own...

Ducks have a fascinating biology. Unpaired males will literally gang rape females to death. There is an evolutionary back and forth where the vaginas become more twisted and obscured and the penises become longer and corkscrewed and explosively evulse. A duck dick is literally about 3/4 their body length and looks like something out of a Lovecraftian snuff film. It's INSANE.

The idea is that the corkscrews make it easier for the female to control who gets in and keeps them from getting locked up and drowned.

But basically your explanation is...

Because MAGIC!

I guess I was TL;DR, too, because my explanation was, quite plainly, SKILL acquired through a long time putting in hard work, aka Gongfu.

[Wanderingdragon]

Unfortunate that I am anchored to Chgo due to personal commitments, but anyone ever in this town please feel free to contact me, I am willing to play
Carlton.

[Niall Keane]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your refrain "how does it work against a trained and resisting opponent"?

What better opponent to resist than yourself? You can't feel the technique on a video. If you're going to call fraud or insult someone's skill or contribution, you should be honorable enough to put your body and ego on the line to back up your accusations.

.... because my explanation was, quite plainly, SKILL acquired through a long time putting in hard work, aka Gongfu.

My own gung fu involved more effort than imagining supernatural energy.

As for the offer its its cop out. I've already put my "body and ego" on the line publically for all who cared to see and footage still exists online. its standard practice, in martial arts it's called full contact competition. on a lei tai too, just like Yang Lu Chan and the lads did back in the day sans YouTube.
I don't understand your problem with having one of your group do likewsie? (I accept you may not be in condition to fight and one person shouldn't have to solely carry a whole
Style)
is there no one amongst you guys who is willing to wrestle or fight for the honour of your style? What's to fear? There's a referee and rules to keep you safe afterall?

Is that tumble weed I see? And some more.... and some more.... wow its quiet around here!

[Gus Mueller]

Niall,

Because you're not a lost cause I'm going to keep drilling and trying to clarify. I've edited your stuff for brevity.

...
This one video is real, but sold in a fake way. All the other hopping videos are fake, fake, fake, sold in a fake, fake, fake way.

Ah, I can see it's quite different from the run of the mill hoppy videos. But it is being presented as validation for such. I have no idea what the coach is training and so I have to fall back on previous clips and statements by the hoppy brigade. As such I'm asking them for valid martial reasons as to why to train and condition a fighter to hop autmonically / reflexively.

You're missing the point. WLC is exploiting reflexes in this demo. He's exploiting stuff that the student cannot train, and cannot control.

If it's some sort of - lock up your body this once to get to feel of "connection" or whatever and NEVER do it in combat then fair enough, but that is not what those who practice theatrical tuishou in the park where a slight twitch sends opponents flying is about.
I'm call in out the Woo woo lads to explain their incredible claims.

A worthy cause, Mr. Bigglesworth.

As for involuntary reflexes... well... even a doctor must have a few trys with a cooperative sitting relaxed patient.

Sorry, no, absolutely not true. Babinski reflex. All the test requires is a live baby. Babies cannot sit. REFLEXES DO NOT REQUIRE COOPERATION. In the case of the knee-jerk (patellar) reflex, the stretching of the the thigh muscle causes alpha neurons to fire, which sends an impulse to the lumbar part of the spine, which fires back an impulse to kick the leg. It never hits the brain.

It's a lot esier to have an opponent resist in one direction and switch to another empty of power and structure... lead him to the void and all. Tuishou excels at ingraining such tactics. You see all good wresters use the concept in every match Same with must thai clinch artists, sanda fighters and mma lads . Conversely you dont see spastic motions brought on by utilizing involuntary reflexes in combat sports.
I believe that some styles of tai chi, particularly some branches of yang style have been so long removed from competively testing their art that delusion has crept in. Tuishou has become the aim rather than a drill ...

I would say tuishou has become very bad stand-up jacketless wrestling. Imagine doing pushups. Pushups are good. Now imagine someone standing over you, pushing down on you, trying to prevent you from doing pushups. That's how tuishou is currently done.

[Wanderingdragon]

There is no point in competition unless it's at the pro level, I think those who can fight, in fact have fought, need Not prove anything to anyone. What folks do on leitai today mostly do it to prove to themselves they are not afraid, it is not the lei tai of old Some have had that test in life, and have passed it early on. This is a forum for discussion and exchange of ideas, if you are unwilling to see the veracity of any given situation because your skill is too high level, well you are beyond learning. Continue to teach.

[Gus Mueller]

There is no point in competition unless it's at the pro level, I think those who can fight, in fact have fought, need Not prove anything to anyone. What folks do on leitai today mostly do it to prove to themselves they are not afraid, it is not the lei tai of old Some have had that test in life, and have passed it early on. This is a forum for discussion and exchange of ideas, if you are unwilling to see the veracity of any given situation because your skill is too high level, well you are beyond learning. Continue to teach.

It sounds like you're saying even the fake demos have "veracity". If you're not, there's a lack of claritude on your part.

[Wanderingdragon]

I'm saying there are no fake demos, there is something to learn in all you see and do, and if you think you already know you stunt your own growth.

[Gus Mueller]

I'm saying there are no fake demos, there is something to learn in all you see and do, and if you think you already know you stunt your own growth.

So if I see a magician doing the French Drop, the most basic coin magic trick, and I say "he was doing the French Drop, the most basic coin magic trick" I have somehow stunted my growth or affected my ability to count money? I know that I don't know everything, but I know that I know what I know. And I know when something's fake. Ironically your pathetic "there are no fake demos" comment came in a thread where I said "this demo is real". In my day, hippies fixed tractors and built stuff, they didn't go around trying to coerce people into believing "everything's la-di-da".

[Wanderingdragon]

Relax Gus, you're among friends, when you see a demo magic or whatever if you look closely, especially if you know the trick, you learn how to use it or how not to be used by it. Demonstration is merely a show. I have been on the end of some fantastic fa jinners and found myself just having fun pushing off of their structure at the height of their intent, yet I have not met one that had the martial intellect to be there before I landed nor have I met one with the martial intellect to know how to take advantage once I did land, you see, even the fake ass bouncing has use, it creates space and time. As for choi Sifu's demonstration he has taken a complete novice who has zero experience with this thing we do, on day one, and created within him a viable fighting structure. If the young man continues his studies in that vane he is already three steps ahead of some " Master " tai chi players out here today. In this thing we do the effort is in learning not knowing, I will say again and the first time I didn't even have you in mind, if you already know, you have stopped. To this day I can do simply the opening of the form and still find a new subtlety or twist.

[Niall Keane]

Niall,

Because you're not a lost cause I'm going to keep drilling and trying to clarify. I've edited your stuff for brevity.

...
This one video is real, but sold in a fake way. All the other hopping videos are fake, fake, fake, sold in a fake, fake, fake way.

Ah, I can see it's quite different from the run of the mill hoppy videos. But it is being presented as validation for such. I have no idea what the coach is training and so I have to fall back on previous clips and statements by the hoppy brigade. As such I'm asking them for valid martial reasons as to why to train and condition a fighter to hop autmonically / reflexively.

You're missing the point. WLC is exploiting reflexes in this demo. He's exploiting stuff that the student cannot train, and cannot control.

If it's some sort of - lock up your body this once to get to feel of "connection" or whatever and NEVER do it in combat then fair enough, but that is not what those who practice theatrical tuishou in the park where a slight twitch sends opponents flying is about.
I'm call in out the Woo woo lads to explain their incredible claims.

A worthy cause, Mr. Bigglesworth.

As for involuntary reflexes... well... even a doctor must have a few trys with a cooperative sitting relaxed patient.

Sorry, no, absolutely not true. Babinski reflex. All the test requires is a live baby. Babies cannot sit. REFLEXES DO NOT REQUIRE COOPERATION. In the case of the knee-jerk (patellar) reflex, the stretching of the the thigh muscle causes alpha neurons to fire, which sends an impulse to the lumbar part of the spine, which fires back an impulse to kick the leg. It never hits the brain.

It's a lot esier to have an opponent resist in one direction and switch to another empty of power and structure... lead him to the void and all. Tuishou excels at ingraining such tactics. You see all good wresters use the concept in every match Same with must thai clinch artists, sanda fighters and mma lads . Conversely you dont see spastic motions brought on by utilizing involuntary reflexes in combat sports.
I believe that some styles of tai chi, particularly some branches of yang style have been so long removed from competively testing their art that delusion has crept in. Tuishou has become the aim rather than a drill ...

I would say tuishou has become very bad stand-up jacketless wrestling. Imagine doing pushups. Pushups are good. Now imagine someone standing over you, pushing down on you, trying to prevent you from doing pushups. That's how tuishou is currently done.

I think there's some crossed wires here...


I understand about reflexes, in Pat Horse High a standard application is to carress the spine downwards as the face is lifted and rotated about the head (if you get me). this tricks the body into believing it is being supported and so collapses the spinal structure. you can drop someone with two little fingers with this "trick".
BUT... doing it to a training partner is one thing, even with mild resistance, but doing it to a lad who wants to knock you out and can move is work too fine for the butchery that is fighting. If you fuck up youre in the shit and fucking up is faiirly easy with such demands for accuracy, we all have bad days. Now you can instead even with gloves on latterally push with a twist the back of his hip and simultaneously carve accross the chest or do that face rotation thing and his structure will be broken, add a trip or hip throw and well...

Wang Cheng-nan famously stated "martial arts proceeds from the complex to the simple" and I can understand the necessity of the complex demands of the "lies to children" in training a martial art, but there comes a time when real life and all its ugliness must be catered for, a time to forget the dim-mak movies and realise "i gotta drop this guy, and I cant be taking unnecessary risks using techniques that demand error-free application" . SO for me anyway, although I will have students first train the orthodox pat horse high, and develop some accuracy and later show them the more "fail-safe" alternative, I am reminded of my Sifu's advice about "aim for the stars and you may reach the moon, aim for the moon and you will fail to leave the earth".

So if someone is seeking to achieve better accuracy from their students good stuff. The classic "lies to children" is how boxers train hooks and weight trandfer and how they are executed in professional fights. But the "lie" is useful training. I can accept that.

What I have issues with is the conditioning of a student to commit martial error, as suggested by the hoppy brigade. hopping to avoid force even to a position of 50-50 neutrality is just bad gung fu. the classics teach us to listen, TRANSFORM and issue force, many mistranslate such as "neutralise". In the Fighter's Song we have clear direction with the five close-quarter strategies: Nian ( sticking / adherence), Lian (continuous and connected), Mian (cotton, i.e. softness), Sui (to follow or allow, not simply yielding as sui can be in any direction in response to the opponent) and Bu Diu Ding (not to lose / abandon (thus allowing for a fresh attack) or to oppose (brutishly) )

hopping back, especially if conditioned to be autonomic in response means transformation is impossible, as contact has been lost. Hopping definately contradicts 4 of the 5 close quarter strategies Nian, Lian, Sui and Bu Diu Ding for sure and probably Mian by the look at the stiffness of the hoppers.

As such whatever they are practicing is not classical Tai Chi Chuan.

When we see multiple hops and hear of chi-magic well... we are deep within the asylum then!

I'd say we see eye to eye on much of the above?

As for tuishou competitions.. it depends on the competitions. The ICBA ones I help run in Ireland are open to all styles so we have McGreggor's SBG team mates down, BJJ lads, Judo Lads, other MMA lads too, and of course gung fu and tai chi lads and lassies even some Muay Thai lads wanting to explore clinch dynamics from other perspectives. The rules are basic, 1 point for a push out / off the mats or leitai, 2 points for a half fall, 4 for a full fall, 8 points for throwing the opponent aerially out of the area. a single 2 minute round. I've trained several national champs and some have gone on to be international champs in tuishou even TCFE European in their "open moving step" (a little more restricted than Irish rules).
The approach elevates tuishou to a decent test of skill against decent opposition, and it can be interesting for people. I had a student in his 40's defeat a national sanda champ in his mid-20's by 8-0, in fairness Marc did go on to be European Heavy Weight Champ. But in that environment there is a lot of mutual respect and everyone learns, quite different from the restricted fixed step tuishou plagued by rules designed by SIfu's seeking to advantage their own students.

SO I respect your criticism, but suggest that there may well be more to tuishou than you realise. BTW... I was talking of the drill type originally, not the freestyle competitive type.

Did you notice the lack of response to my suggestion that someone of the hoppy style enter a comp and demonstrate the skills use?

I guess it too will be met with "my door is always open " response, which of course is a cop out. For myself, right now, I'm using RSF as a break from my annual online tax returns. Running an architectural practice and having three boys under 6 and another on the way doesn't leave much time for applying for visas and traveling half way around the world to "exchange" with someone advocating magic and offering nothing else. My students wont be interested, they are focused on winning Tuishou and sanda Europeans and worlds, not on some unknown professing chi-power. Time is capital we don't get back! In fairness we all have busy lives, and my fight record absolves me from any bullshit about "daring to cross hands" This ain't the shaw brothers, its real life, why can't these lads just feckin do the obvious and easiest option, like I did and many others, go with nature and all, enter a feckin comp? They go on about things being "just kick-boxing" so I would expect to see a recognizable stylistic differences between typical sanda / mma and what they do, and some hops maybe? , even subtle ones to confound their opponents. I expect once connected in a clinch the opponent should be putty in their hands being hopped all over the lei tai at their mercy, as previously described about far riskier bouncer situations. It could be a goldmine for them, I'll be straight on to some of the worlds top MMA and K1 coaches in my contact list and be pushing that they have a look at this new game-changer!

I could get them an audience with John Kavanagh no problem, we go back, there's mutual respect between us there, I don't know McGreggor personally but who knows within a few weeks they could be part of his coaching team. Imagine that? coaching the UFC's most valuable fighter? They're always open to progress and new methods that deliver down at SBG Ireland. One of their main coaches is a tai chi brother of mine, and many of my students have cross-trained with theirs, so the door is open if you can deliver. I can make this happen no problem!
There's coaches begging for such a chance! ( on that note everyone else please don't start PMing me about it )

What do you think Gus? will we be seeing some of their fight highlights soon?

[Wanderingdragon]

This is the ignorance of the intellect, as long as you see hopping you will never understand even your own art. You're a fighter that's simple enough. Simplicity is clearly your goal.

[origami_itto]

This is the ignorance of the intellect, as long as you see hopping you will never understand your own art. You're a fighter that's simple enough. Simplicity is clearly your goal.

The art's big enough for anyone to find what they're looking for and cultivate it, in my opinion. Some folks are after tiny pieces, some want as much as they can handle. Sometimes both are the same thing.

[xxxxx]

Gus and Origami's dialogue was moved to its own thread in the Circular File.

This discussion is done.