Poor understanding

[Wanderingdragon]

A recent Wai Lun Choi clip was met with fairly negative response I think mostly for poor understanding of the quality being demoed. Here I have it explained by a tai chi teacher for those who only understand tai chi. The reality is internal principle is internal principle, in this clip of grandmaster Fang Ning at around 15: he explains the same principle, really not about bouncing, it's about understanding the principle.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=T4iw-2lAkxY

[RobP3]

Yes, we understand that, thank you. I've trained with people who trained extensively with Fang Ning. It's basics - if you lock your structure in and a person pushes on it, they should be able to bounce you off like that. I don't see where that gets us in terms of people being taught to hop as a default response in certain types of demo though?

[windwalker]

A recent Wai Lun Choi clip was met with fairly negative response I think mostly for poor understanding of the quality being demoed. Here I have it explained by a tai chi teacher for those who only understand tai chi. The reality is internal principle is internal principle, in this clip of grandmaster Fang Ning at around 15: he explains the same principle, really not about bouncing, it's about understanding the principle.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=T4iw-2lAkxY

nice clip

[windwalker]

Yes, we understand that, thank you. I've trained with people who trained extensively with Fang Ning. It's basics - if you lock your structure in and a person pushes on it, they should be able to bounce you off like that. I don't see where that gets us in terms of people being taught to hop as a default response in certain types of demo though?

It depends on how its done, what is interacted with.

In the clips that some have problems with the people are reacting to what they feel.
Having been on the receiving end, it is strange in that one may wonder about why they
react as they do, but they do....

In the clip the teacher is explaining something he can do, they are thinking that by doing so they may understand it,
actually they don't because they can't do it. If they could their questions would be different.

[Wanderingdragon]

I think the hopping is not what is actually taught, I think it comes about by students overdramatizing the affect of why is being taught. Over time the hopping has become the focus rather than the principle being taught, leading to a very poor understanding by many modern players.

[RobP3]

But the hopping is actually taught in some cases, that was my earlier point. And what happens then is what may be useful exercise becomes, in demo terms, something else which, I agree , is not at all useful for the student. There are clips of the similar hopping response in what is called "sparring" for example, totally removed from what would be considered a real or useful response.

Granted, people react in different ways and from a teacher perspective you never know how someone is going to respond to what you . But it should be incumbent on a teacher to correct a poor response, not encourage it

[windwalker]

I think the hopping is not what is actually taught, I think it comes about by students overdramatizing the affect of why is being taught. Over time the hopping has become the focus rather than the principle being taught, leading to a very poor understanding by many modern players.

We seem to have some very different thoughts on this. I know of no teachers nor students where this is the focus.
There may be some who are more sensitive to it then others but all are affected regardless. If some do "overdramatize"
I would say "so" that's them, nothing to do with the one viewing or ones own practice.

The problem is not one of of poor understanding, IMO its lack of shared experience.
This can be interesting, by PM people seem to get past this and have some good conversations.
even ones in which they both disagree on.

In most cases the clips shown are from classes or unscripted interactions that someone posted to Utube.
Just as the clip you posted. I don't quite get the obsession with "others" understanding.

Every one talks of the "others" understanding somehow feeling they are not one of the "others"

Nice clip, thanks for posting it

[Wanderingdragon]

Many teachers allow all fools to their folly, those who over dramatize the bounce clearly don't understand, if the student remains a student and continues to train he should learn if he does not why waist time trying to explain the very simple principle being taught, it only serves to frustrate a teacher. One can only hope there is a light ulb moment for the student.

[origami_itto]

I think the hopping is not what is actually taught, I think it comes about by students overdramatizing the affect of why is being taught. Over time the hopping has become the focus rather than the principle being taught, leading to a very poor understanding by many modern players.

The hopping is the focus of people who don't understand what's happening, you mean?

Yes, we understand that, thank you. I've trained with people who trained extensively with Fang Ning. It's basics - if you lock your structure in and a person pushes on it, they should be able to bounce you off like that. I don't see where that gets us in terms of people being taught to hop as a default response in certain types of demo though?

How would you categorize Fang Ning and his students here? Is this the kind of hopping you don't like?

[windwalker]

But the hopping is actually taught in some cases, that was my earlier point. And what happens then is what may be useful exercise becomes, in demo terms, something else which, I agree , is not at all useful for the student. There are clips of the similar hopping response in what is called "sparring" for example, totally removed from what would be considered a real or useful response.

Granted, people react in different ways and from a teacher perspective you never know how someone is going to respond to what you . But it should be incumbent on a teacher to correct a poor response, not encourage it

I agree, and also was kind of surprised when a friend of mine mentioned this.
Also agree that IMO in can cause bad habits to get formed or developed.

IME similar things that some might question here where never trained, just natural reactions.
As you noted its incumbent on the teacher to help the student to understand what is true and what is not,
and why. For me its really non issue.

I dont quite understand why so much time is devoted to this on this site.

who cares?

Just as some not understanding your own practices might question them, it becomes clear
when one is actually doing them. If they don't get it just by watching or by explanation
seems like they would go to find out for themselves.

[windwalker]

I think the hopping is not what is actually taught, I think it comes about by students overdramatizing the affect of why is being taught. Over time the hopping has become the focus rather than the principle being taught, leading to a very poor understanding by many modern players.

The hopping is the focus of people who don't understand what's happening, you mean?

Yes, we understand that, thank you. I've trained with people who trained extensively with Fang Ning. It's basics - if you lock your structure in and a person pushes on it, they should be able to bounce you off like that. I don't see where that gets us in terms of people being taught to hop as a default response in certain types of demo though?

How would you categorize Fang Ning and his students here? Is this the kind of hopping you don't like?

nice clip,,,,the teacher is quite skilled.

A question not addressed:

What would happen if the students where just pushed would they react the same?

If not why not?
Whats the teacher doing that could cause the reaction?

skipping rocks on the water

[Wanderingdragon]

As a teen I was once almost hit by a taxi when crossing the street, untrained in any art other than running and jumping, something they call par kor now days, I place my hands on the hood of the cab and was able to push off landing on my feet needing to skip/hop back a few steps to maintain my balance. Hopping ?, yes injures ?, no. Today I know the only thing I did wrong was not fall after landing and rolling, so I could take an injury and sue the cab co.

[Bao]

A recent Wai Lun Choi clip was met with fairly negative response I think mostly for poor understanding of the quality being demoed. Here I have it explained by a tai chi teacher for those who only understand tai chi. The reality is internal principle is internal principle, in this clip of grandmaster Fang Ning at around 15: he explains the same principle, really not about bouncing, it's about understanding the principle.

I don't think it's the same. In Xingyi, there's some practice where one tries to stabilise oneself from all 6 directions. Usually, this is what you should do in the santishi. What I wasn't all that happy with was the students root in the older clip. So from a XY perspective, they was only concerned about 4 of the 6 directions (not up or down). The student didn't show that he stretched his feet into the ground, he didn't plant his root firmly into the ground. But I guess there's a reason for showing what they showed, but maybe something dedicated XY practitioners understand better. But the clip you provided here, is not about the same kind of structural integrity. It doesn't show 6 harmony structure, it only shows stability from one direction. What happens if one would push the girl on any other place or from any other directions, we really don't know.

[Strange]

Chen Yiren told me teacher, after having studied under him for some time, "hey you are getting heavier and more
difficult to push away, good good.."

just want to say that from a teacher's perspective.

i don't do taichi, so i cannot comment on the vid
but however in my understanding, if the student keep feeling very light like paper
then i think there is something not right

I think Master Choi just having fun
i think for ppl at his level, the art in his body is complete already
meaning he understand the jin and force he possess
in your mind the understanding is complete,
then you mind/understanding can move out to include and encapsulate your opponent/student
LHBF: movement is align to 3 dimensional space.
the laws of martial art force and its transmission to other physical objects in space,
and how they will behave is understood.
so like the daoist tasting from the vinegar vat, he is just smiling and having fun
"see this one, if you do this, then this will happen la"

usually it is very difficult to touch hand with master at this level
because once the hands touch, his mind already encapsulate you
once he touch your hand, he know where you are at
so if you enemy know you, you are dead in the water
so LHBF have a word, is to remain unknown, to obscure, to hide
but the prob is, if you are student, you use ming jing, then you not able to hide

fwiw

[willie]

edit...not worth it.