Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby AlexF on Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:12 am

windwalker wrote:
AlexF wrote:

The arguments always seem to be had by parties that don't have hands on experience.
Of course, the other argument is that we have all been converted and willingly throw ourselves, tank, like looking stupid writhing around in pretend pain blah blah ::)


Which are the same arguments used by some of the same people commenting when commenting negatively on others clips not having been there.

I would have thought though, the same experience had by over 1,000 would say something?

Does it matter how many people have felt it If the discussions are only held by PM among those that have attended the seminars
why post on a public site knowing that things shown will be questioned.

It tends to lead to counter post
t's amusing to watch how it seems completely impossible for you to even take into account the simple fact that many people who post here and comment on these clips and photos, who have actually been there, in person, on more than one occasion, might actually be telling you the truth about what is/was happening there, and what Dan's work is like... And that somehow they (we) are all either collectively lying, or are all completely delusional


Just looking at the clips I myself have no problems, questions, nor arguments with what is presented
I do question the point of presenting anything:

If “it has to be felt” why post on a public discussion board.



The only reason I posted on this public site was to let those people that may still interested if seeking this "stuff" out (through all the background noise) that the "method" is explainable by people training it even though it hasn't been done on RSF.

Windwalker would you feel comfortable explaining your teachers method publicly on a site he himself frequents?
Dan can speak for himself, he can defend himself and "his method" (if you want to call it that though he repeatedly says its not his its hundreds if not thousands of years old) both verbally and physically. I've told him many times he's mad even arguing this stuff online, especially now so many people have felt him and are working the material, but then again I met him through reading his discussions online, so go figure.

I have enjoyed reading Emptyflower and RSF for many years, I rarely post, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate and respect what's discussed from the background even when my personal experience doesn't match. It makes me think, examine, re-examine... do I need to share that? The things "I" question? I think not.
I offer my opinions when I chose to and to whom I chose. I don't feel the need to argue every point or right every wrong each to their own.

The bottom line is I can pop in, read what I want, say what I want (respecting others).
If you or others don't like it, cool, deal with it, just like if I don't like what you wrote I deal. As it is within your right to ask why do it publicly in the first place.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby junglist on Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:02 am

In martial arts, if you think someone sucks and they are accessible, go see them and feel for yourself, especially if other people are vouching for them. I did that with Vlad, Ark, and the Daito Ryu Roppokai guys (to be honest though I wasn't skeptical. Just curious). It's not a duel or anything--you just see if they have anything you don't have in your toolbox. If they don't, go home. If they do, work with them. Simple. No use yapping about it on the net and being a "skeptic" troll.
Last edited by junglist on Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:17 am

The bottom line is I can pop in, read what I want, say what I want (respecting others).
If you or others don't like it, cool, deal with it, just like if I don't like what you wrote I deal. As it is within your right to ask why do it publicly in the first place.


It's not about me liking anything or not, I am merely pointing inconsistencies which I often see here concerning
not only “Dan” but others who post things that come under question.

All use the same arguments to refute things that they themselves use when negatively commenting on other clips.
Sure the best way is for self exploration which I totally support
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Bodywork on Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:36 am

I've been too busy to respond.
1. The videos presented are not my normal seminar, nor a representation what I do. It was a Daito ryu seminar for Roy's people and my people, showing the correlation between Daito ryu "techniques" and where I took the body skills and aiki from classical kata to the modern world. I suspect I will have to repeat that till I'm dead. Even after 12,00 people reading it. In total The videos represent about 30 min or so of me out of about 24 hours of training and offer little by way of explanations.
2. Questions of the arm bar.
I stated clearly it wasn't an arm bar. It was what happens *before* the arm bar. Said it out loud. Didn't matter though. Nothing stops an agenda. In any case, as stated, it was left open for attendees to be able to see a (prior to the filming, long explanation of) skill for removing slack prior to setting an arm bar.
a.my legs were open,
b. there was no bridging,
c.I left out the grip setting the radius/ulna.
d. I left the arm in an open position.
e. I left out two things we do that are somewhat different and may be unique.
All purposefully.
But that's okay. I'll leave it to the internet jockies to *assume* that after 44 years of grappling that one minute of (explained video) defines my career- to include rolling with men far past the detractors skill sets.
3. Open palm
Several of the men in that video ARE Bjj and MMA guys. It was a voluntary DEMO showing a principle and a simple enough drill (done as kata) to "fill the hand." Filling the hand is a coined phrase for stickiness. Those same skills -once trained- can make you very sticky and feel "attached" controlling and difficult to deal with. And that, at speed. It is very difficult to show as it lasts for only fractions of seconds to multiple seconds when sparring or rolling. However, the "feel" has been attested to by many grapplers and fighters -again equal to and in many cases likely beyond, anyone's level here. It was done slowly and for seminar folks each step was trained in kata, tested and amped up to different levels. No, the whole thing wasn't explained on film. And probably never will be. For those that can't follow that? Good.
4. My own comments on other videos
Of the majority of videos I have commented on? I have discussed lineage and skills that were simply not who and what, they claimed to be. Among which were:
a. Faudulant lineage; both in skill and paperwork- with one particularl guy who was actually thrown out of the lineage you guys then claimed he represented, then he granted rank in it.... Past any rank he himself ever recieved. But you loved it and didn't care that he was a fraud.
b. One who claimed lineage to a made up ryu that was presumably the most developed art in the entire history of Japan, that heretofore no one has heard of...
c. Another who was a known fraud, a sex offender who by way of court settlement lost his school, who's skills had nothing to do with the art he claimed to come from and who's ranks were dated AFTER his supposed teacher had died. But you loved it and didn't care that -he- was a fraud.

And? My comments typically all stated "I don't care what they are doing in the video, it's only thst they are not and it is NOT, what they claim it to be."
Who was who and what was what? Well, I can give clear examples of that as well as the many positive comments on good martial artists but why repeat? As this post will also clearly demonstrate;
The internet has shown a clear precedent of there being millions of words presented and folks demonstrating a marked inability or *purposeful* disinterest...in not being able to read and understand them.
That's all I have to say.
Dan
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby willie on Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:35 pm

Bodywork wrote:I've been too busy to respond.
1. The videos presented are not my normal seminar, nor a representation what I do. It was a Daito ryu seminar for Roy's people and my people, showing the correlation between Daito ryu "techniques" and where I took the body skills and aiki from classical kata to the modern world. I suspect I will have to repeat that till I'm dead. Even after 12,00 people reading it. In total The videos represent about 30 min or so of me out of about 24 hours of training and offer little by way of explanations.
2. Questions of the arm bar.
I stated clearly it wasn't an arm bar. It was what happens *before* the arm bar. Said it out loud. Didn't matter though. Nothing stops an agenda. In any case, as stated, it was left open for attendees to be able to see a (prior to the filming, long explanation of) skill for removing slack prior to setting an arm bar.
a.my legs were open,
b. there was no bridging,
c.I left out the grip setting the radius/ulna.
d. I left the arm in an open position.
e. I left out two things we do that are somewhat different and may be unique.
All purposefully.
But that's okay. I'll leave it to the internet jockies to *assume* that after 44 years of grappling that one minute of (explained video) defines my career- to include rolling with men far past the detractors skill sets.
3. Open palm
Several of the men in that video ARE Bjj and MMA guys. It was a voluntary DEMO showing a principle and a simple enough drill (done as kata) to "fill the hand." Filling the hand is a coined phrase for stickiness. Those same skills -once trained- can make you very sticky and feel "attached" controlling and difficult to deal with. And that, at speed. It is very difficult to show as it lasts for only fractions of seconds to multiple seconds when sparring or rolling. However, the "feel" has been attested to by many grapplers and fighters -again equal to and in many cases likely beyond, anyone's level here. It was done slowly and for seminar folks each step was trained in kata, tested and amped up to different levels. No, the whole thing wasn't explained on film. And probably never will be. For those that can't follow that? Good.
4. My own comments on other videos
Of the majority of videos I have commented on? I have discussed lineage and skills that were simply not who and what, they claimed to be. Among which were:
a. Faudulant lineage; both in skill and paperwork- with one particularl guy who was actually thrown out of the lineage you guys then claimed he represented, then he granted rank in it.... Past any rank he himself ever recieved. But you loved it and didn't care that he was a fraud.
b. One who claimed lineage to a made up ryu that was presumably the most developed art in the entire history of Japan, that heretofore no one has heard of...
c. Another who was a known fraud, a sex offender who by way of court settlement lost his school, who's skills had nothing to do with the art he claimed to come from and who's ranks were dated AFTER his supposed teacher had died. But you loved it and didn't care that -he- was a fraud.

And? My comments typically all stated "I don't care what they are doing in the video, it's only thst they are not and it is NOT, what they claim it to be."
Who was who and what was what? Well, I can give clear examples of that as well as the many positive comments on good martial artists but why repeat? As this post will also clearly demonstrate;
The internet has shown a clear precedent of there being millions of words presented and folks demonstrating a marked inability or *purposeful* disinterest...in not being able to read and understand them.
That's all I have to say.
Dan


HeHeHe!
Dan, they are going to negative you for the following reasons.

They will negative because,
They cant fight
They dont like your hair
They don't like you period
It goes against what their precious teacher says
It's different
It don't look like mma
Your too fat
your too skinny
your too big
your too small
you use too much power
they have none
their theories are different
your sucsessful, they are not
you won / they lost
it just keeps going on and on.
it's called losers, haters, poeple who are unsatified with themselves.

oh and by the way, what's with the woowoo? lol!
Last edited by willie on Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:07 am

As a CIMA guy, I always enjoy watching practitioners from other internal systems train and apply their arts.

My question for Dan, Roy, or others who are knowledgeable in Daito Ryu is this:

Based on what I've seen in this series of demos, the presence of "aiki" -- the internal skill to seize, control, and break an opponent's weaker structure at the moment of contact -- is key to DR's combat effectiveness. It also appears the style uses a uke/nage model in which one applies aiki while the other simply receives and falls. But what happens if the opponent is also a trained IMAist with equally stable or even superior structure (i.e., no 'slack' in the joints to easily manipulate)?

In Chinese arts, we have various semi-free training exercises, such as push hands, that teach people how to neutralize, redirect, and counter the opponent's attack to address this type of scenario. Do similar exercises also exist in DR?
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Bodywork on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:13 am

C.J.W. wrote:As a CIMA guy, I always enjoy watching practitioners from other internal systems train and apply their arts.

My question for Dan, Roy, or others who are knowledgeable in Daito Ryu is this:

Based on what I've seen in this series of demos, the presence of "aiki" -- the internal skill to seize, control, and break an opponent's weaker structure at the moment of contact -- is key to DR's combat effectiveness. It also appears the style uses a uke/nage model in which one applies aiki while the other simply receives and falls. But what happens if the opponent is also a trained IMAist with equally stable or even superior structure (i.e., no 'slack' in the joints to easily manipulate)?

In Chinese arts, we have various semi-free training exercises, such as push hands, that teach people how to neutralize, redirect, and counter the opponent's attack to address this type of scenario. Do similar exercises also exist in DR?

Asked and answered many times.... but it is the internet after all.
No, the art didn't have routine training for dealing with a developed structure. Hence why I left and call my dojo shugyo dojo. As stated on the video, I took the developed body skills into the grappling and MMA venue.There the body skills were stress tested to the max. Virtually everything had to be deepened and trained to handle extremely fast and ever changing forces. I did away with DR, Aikido, and Taiji's "connection" ideas as they were just simply stupid in combative settings. Instead we strived to retain center and through aiki never find the opponent a chance to connect to us. Thereby ensuring that the less developed center was carried along by the more developed center (either in throws or just momentary yet casscading losses of positioning) and or hitting and kicking without wind up. It was a very clear tactical and power advantage.
Then, I tested it against Chinese Master level guys as well as Japanese JMA teachers
Some DR guys trained with me a bit. Others, like Roy, became obsessed with training with me in both; tradition and free use. There were times were Roy practically moved in while we experimented in secret.


Development combined with tradition:
This shit isn't for everyone. It's too damn hard to train. You have to be hungry for it and train it all the time; standing in lines, driving, testing, failing over and over.

Roy has to carry the tradition and that is VERY cool. I am free to do what I have always done, blend grappling with striking, weapons of all types and just, move.

How it appears in training;
I am fully aware that some of the tradinal techniues are hard to understand and look ridiculous. In fact I agree. the difference is that I never...EVER...equate them to fighting. they are training models for other skills. Only the idiots think they are fighting skils or think that we think they are fighting skills. Some martial artists can be pretty stupid. They can't see and differentiate training from fighting or complex training models and how they mix and I don't deal with their stupidity and video game/ YouTube/ "I can only understand the superficial and obvious" bullshit very well. I've no interest in "convincing" those who can't see the forest for the trees. So, through the years, I've put almost two dozen people who said Daito Ryu and soft training doesn't work..... in the hospital. Then, for some reason.... they get it!

Why do so few get that it works? Because most either train hard style fighting, or just soft style light contact. and many times both dismiss each others training. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. It is my opinion that most people who train for softness didn't ever experiment and fight with it. And the few who did were stand up/push hands sanda types.
Most cannot point to multiple broken bones, all types of injuries and dealing with weapons, being comfortable on ground and living with failure til they didn't lose so much.
Yet somehow they "arrived" as undefeatable martial art teachers. ::) ;)
Me....I worked at it for decades to use soft in actual, effective, combatives. With and without weapons. But you can't cheat the system. Ya gotta roll.
And as I often say...
"There's your woo, woo for ya. " 8-)

Okay, that's it. I'm out.
Dan
Last edited by Bodywork on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:17 am

So I've put almost two dozen people who said Daito Ryu and soft training doesn't work..... in the hospital. Then, for some reason.... they get it!


How does this lend any credence to what you’ve just posted.
The two dozen people could be nobodies with no skill. If you competed openly in some “known” event and tested your skill there like the Gracie's this would be more of an indication of proof of concept using an accepted testing ground.

As it is, many Chinese masters can say the same things,
that they are undefeated with the corresponding question of undefeated by “who”.

As you often note, it's a matter of level. If you're comparing yourself to world class competitors
It would seem like you would use a world class stage.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby willie on Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:11 am

Bodywork wrote:
Why do so few get that it works? Because most either train hard style fighting, or just soft style light contact. and many times both dismiss each others training. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. It is my opinion that most people who train for softness didn't ever experiment and fight with it. And the few who did were stand up/push hands sanda types.
Most cannot point to multiple broken bones, all types of injuries and dealing with weapons, being comfortable on ground and living with failure til they didn't lose so much.
Yet somehow they "arrived" as undefeatable martial art teachers. ::) ;)
Me....I worked at it for decades to use soft in actual, effective, combatives. With and without weapons. But you can't cheat the system. Ya gotta roll.
And as I often say...
"There's your woo, woo for ya. " 8-)

Okay, that's it. I'm out.
Dan


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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Sombra on Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:14 pm

The nice thing about this modern era we live in is that if you're an MMA guy then you'll have a fight record, or your gym will. Or the athletes you coach will.

If you don't have any record to speak of that would be quite odd to put it mildly. But in an era when video is so prevalent there would be at least footage of a coach or athlete putting in these hard yards, or other MMA coaches in their vicinity would have experiences or opinions about their peer.

If the absence of the above you're left with stories. Everyone likes stories but very few believe them when they can't be corroborated
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:35 pm

Sombra wrote:The nice thing about this modern era we live in is that if you're an MMA guy then you'll have a fight record, or your gym will. Or the athletes you coach will. . . .

If the absence of the above you're left with stories. Everyone likes stories but very few believe them when they can't be corroborated

I agree. You can go to websites such as sherdog.com/stats/fightfinder or boxrec.com and see a fighter's record, who he/she has fought and who their opponents have fought. There are good fighters that have hundreds of fights, against other well trained fighters.

Yet, the ones telling the stories will claim MMA is not real fighting (which it's not), because of the rules. Then, show a lecture, demonstration, push hand challenge, which has even more rules than MMA. When asked for videos of the teacher or just one of their students applying these skills against a non-cooperative opponent, you're sometimes faced with ridicule.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Ashura on Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:27 am

Sombra wrote:The nice thing about this modern era we live in is that if you're an MMA guy then you'll have a fight record, or your gym will. Or the athletes you coach will.

If you don't have any record to speak of that would be quite odd to put it mildly. But in an era when video is so prevalent there would be at least footage of a coach or athlete putting in these hard yards, or other MMA coaches in their vicinity would have experiences or opinions about their peer.

If the absence of the above you're left with stories. Everyone likes stories but very few believe them when they can't be corroborated



Exactly. The problem with the word MMA (mixed martial arts) is that somebody could consider it literally, that is to say mixing, for instance, Aikido with Jodo and some Taichi and call it MMA which is sensu stricto correct since several martial arts are mixed together. While this is linguistic right, in this case, it is a blatant misuse.

The problem is the vast majority of the people when hearing or reading the word MMA (even those not practicing martial arts) would think in the first place of the ever growing modern sport combat and not something else. Perhaps the world MMA should be exclusively used to refer to sport MMA. This would avoid a lot of misunderstandings.
See where there is no shape, hear where there is no sound.

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby bailewen on Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:52 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j85uuZqIZIM


Brush Knee Twist Step at 3:25.

I really got something out of that.
Click here for my Baji Leitai clip.
www.xiangwuhui.com

p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
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