Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

[Spncr]

You did see his flat palm and fingers and thumb not gripping Sweatsuit's arm at all, right? He could have walked away, grabbed a cup of coffee, come back and slapped his equally flat not grabby palm against Sweatsuit's arm and picked up where he left off.

You did see that the guy doing the grabbing was being uke right?
So your wondering why uke didn't walk away to grab a cup of coffee? Hmmm...

Sweatsuit (or Dan if you will) specifically asked the uke to open his hand to show a concept which he then explains @ 2:00...
Maybe you just watched it with the volume off? or perhaps you listened to his explanation and still think its all just BS?

You may never find out why he didn't just go for coffee instead.

[Chris Li]

Clicked on the link. In 2 Sides of the Coin, Part 4, starting at 3:40 the uke (white gi guy) sticks with his open palm, without grabbing, to the outside of the forearm of the guy in black sweats and acts like he's being raised up off his heels onto his toes. After a few seconds of this he valiantly does a "martial cartwheel". This goes beyond any "jumping" or "hopping" that has been clearly pointed out. Seriously, WTF? Could it be anymore fake? Being expected to take this seriously is insulting.

Of course it's "fake" - it's not a fight, it's a training model. Dan talks about it a bit in part 5:

https://youtu.be/wd0Ix0dnkzM

Best,

Chris

[Chris Li]

Jamie - judo/mma/sambo/Bjj all do their arm bars the same way. I can see where this will go so probably wise to not engage. Suffice to say I can see why he never posted video before. Emperor / clothes.

Mike Sigman commenting on the same video yesterday on Facebook:

Ah ... that's right ...the Emperor *does* have some splendid new garments. You enjoy them, my friend. Good luck to you and all of your endeavors.

Funny how these things get recycled...

Best,

Chris

[Marko]

Thanks to Roy and Dan for doing this. As I said when this seminar was announced, I hope they make it over the pond as well

[northern_mantis]

I was all ready to hate on this because of the tone of some previous discussions however on the whole I thought it was nice work.

To my eye there does seem to be over reaction in the uke a number of times. Whilst considering the fact it is co-operative work (and the explanation of this is good) the idea is to extrapolate a use for it at full power for those that are interested in fighting. Maybe a more moderated reaction might assist in deciding what elements being shown would be useful.

Thanks for sharing. Would love to see a bit of free play of some sort if that happened.

[Patrick]

Thank you for posting that. At least to my eyes: "Im Westen nichts Neues" (Nothing new to report at the western front...)
But he sounds much nicer in video

[Dmitri]

I suppose it's easier to just hate instead of trying to understand why so many grapplers and mma guys have that wtf look in the face when rolling with Dan

Oh believe me, I want to try. But I can't. It's been made very clear to me I have to tread carefully around him, by the mods

There's only one way to understand that, and it is to go see him in person; the mods aren't stopping you from that. So, of course you can.

Remember how just a few short years ago you were making all those "BJJ is gay" jokes, because of how funny or silly it looked on video, but then you went to actually try it and... well, you stopped joking to say the very least?

I have a feeling this is one of those cases, here.

Just some food for thought.

PS. Dan's been grappling for decades prior to you starting with BJJ. Something else to think about.

[windwalker]

nice clips,
very clear explanations

Agreed. Good clear instruction.

@Graham:

My amusement is that the same people commenting positively or not at all,
are all to willing to comment negatively on old chinese masters showing much of the same "type" of work.

The explanations used fall into line with much of the same concepts as we use, the terminology is a little different but pretty
much the same. If I posted clips of some of my own work or my teachers work it would tend to look the same according to the level of
skill being demoed.

I have always mentioned that what is shown is not really the way its used or employed.

Many can question the work itself, or some can ask those doing it directly about some of the concepts used.

Which would be more productive?

Many ask for examples of IMA or IP "what ever" but when presented instead of commenting about the concepts the work itself is questioned.
Many who could explain quite clearly have either left or stopped posting.

[windwalker]

I suppose it's easier to just hate instead of trying to understand why so many grapplers and mma guys have that wtf look in the face when rolling with Dan

Oh believe me, I want to try. But I can't. It's been made very clear to me I have to tread carefully around him, by the mods

There's only one way to understand that, and it is to go see him in person; the mods aren't stopping you from that. So, of course you can.

Remember how just a few short years ago you were making all those "BJJ is gay" jokes, because of how funny or silly it looked on video, but then you went to actually try it and... well, you stopped joking to say the very least?

I have a feeling this is one of those cases, here.

Just some food for thought.

This issue really should be addressed in a thread of its own.

not "it has to be felt" argument,,,Where is Niall Kane, when you need him


GrahamB, is mealy stating the obvious. This site has certain biases which people have noted.
Having been questioned on a lot of the work I try to present and talk about similar in nature
very few threads get locked, or people are told to back off, at least "to my knowledge"
I've learned to stop and so have...for the most part.

Willie, is asked to stop posting for awhile because of comments he's made, while others making similar
comments are not. If you feel the site is not biased, could be because you have implicit bias and so can not see it, or maybe
because you've worked with him you might be given to be more understanding of what is shown.

Just some food for thought

[origami_itto]

Hey - nobody ban me for saying this, ok? I'm not making any personal attacks ok mods?

But seriously - can somebody please show Dan how to do an armbar (he calls it an 'elbow lock')? Excuse me for being trapped at the level of technique, but that is simply terrible technique being demonstrated.

There is a part where Roy says, several times "if you don't have aiki, you just do the jujitsu".

If you haven't seen or felt the difference I wouldn't expect you to understand. It's the same thing with Taijiquan, we just use different words. Like stick, adhere, join, follow.

The key point is that technique has nothing to do with it. Technique is weak and can be countered. This is pure skill.

I'm sure someone will take issue with this, but at a gross level technique is Wei jin, skill is nei jin.

[Bao]

GrahamB, is mealy stating the obvious. This site has certain biases which people have noted.
Having been questioned on a lot of the work I try to present and talk about similar in nature
very few threads get locked, or people are told to back off, at least "to my knowledge"
I've learned to stop and so have...for the most part.

Willie, is asked to stop posting for awhile because of comments he's made, while others making similar
comments are not. If you feel the site is not biased, could be because you have implicit bias and so can not see it, or maybe
because you've worked with him you might be given to be more understanding of what is shown.

Just some food for thought

To be fair, Willie almost never answered on posts or topics and provoked just to provoke. Joking and being critical is another thing. I can't really compare the two gents.

Hey - nobody ban me for saying this, ok? I'm not making any personal attacks ok mods?

But seriously - can somebody please show Dan how to do an armbar (he calls it an 'elbow lock')? Excuse me for being trapped at the level of technique, but that is simply terrible technique being demonstrated.

There is a part where Roy says, several times "if you don't have aiki, you just do the jujitsu".

If you haven't seen or felt the difference I wouldn't expect you to understand. It's the same thing with Taijiquan, we just use different words. Like stick, adhere, join, follow.

The key point is that technique has nothing to do with it. Technique is weak and can be countered. This is pure skill.

I'm sure someone will take issue with this, but at a gross level technique is Wei jin, skill is nei jin.

Aiki or not aiki... "Aiki" is too abstract and philosphical for my own taste. We speak about practical stuff here that can be explained in a practical hands on manner. But yes, attacking the strength is different from manipulating structure, or adapting to structure. I can understand what Dan does from my own perspective, but from standing up methods. I don't know for sure how well it would translate to a lying down position. Graham has a groundwork perspective and I am sure he knows what works on the ground. I am also sure that Dan knows how to apply a more traditional armbar. But I also know from a teacher's perspective that you sometimes get so much into your own ideas that you sometimes can forget other circumstances outside of the principles you work on right at the moment. I bet that this can happen to Dan as well. My conclusion is that Dan should do the same on someone more well reversed in ground fighting and film it, preferably against Graham. Then we can all have a satisfying answer.

[windwalker]

Clicked on the link. In 2 Sides of the Coin, Part 4, starting at 3:40 the uke (white gi guy) sticks with his open palm, without grabbing, to the outside of the forearm of the guy in black sweats and acts like he's being raised up off his heels onto his toes. After a few seconds of this he valiantly does a "martial cartwheel". This goes beyond any "jumping" or "hopping" that has been clearly pointed out. Seriously, WTF? Could it be anymore fake? Being expected to take this seriously is insulting.

Of course it's "fake" - it's not a fight, it's a training model. Dan talks about it a bit in part 5:

https://youtu.be/wd0Ix0dnkzM

Best,

Chris

I would not call it "fake" people are reacting to what they feel, what point would there be for them to "fake" it or over dramatize it.


Interesting isn't it. The rational given.

Examples posted are the same as many other examples in that they are not "fighting" but examples of a concept used in a
context to illustrate the concept itself. Not real world usage...

The same questions asked the only difference is that here there are those who've worked with Dan,
or as in your case hosted him for seminars and can help provide answers or deflect questions.

One can not post a clip showing this and not expect not to be questioned on it or called on it.

More so if one of the actors has made it a point to call out others work, while until this point posting none of his own for comparison.
Now that there is an example of it, it might be interesting to compare it to work be other teachers noting the differences or
similarities between them.

It might be more honest for those supporting the work to state why they support it,
given that other work similar in nature is called out
or the teachers are questioned.

Those who question it, there is no explanation given nor rational that will suffice, unless
your own work is either close to or along the same lines.

The work if true is something that not many achieve. Often the biggest detractors become the best
advocates once they meet someone with real skill sets. the "it has to be felt"

with the cavet that it has to be someone "with real skill sets"

[Dmitri]

You really need to stop equating what you do with what Dan does. From your clip, and from having felt and practiced with people from lineages very close to yours, I'd mortgage my house in a bet that it is utterly different.

As for the other post:

This issue really should be addressed in a thread of its own.

You say this after (yet another) bitter post about how CMA is unfairly underappreciated, AND you proceed immediately to derail it way out, calling on a few other people who haven't posted here, etc.
And you're telling me to go to another thread, after I replied directly to another poster here?!

[windwalker]

To be fair, Willie almost never answered on posts or topics and provoked just to provoke. Joking and being critical is another thing. I can't really compare the two gents.

It was a gen statement in the context of GhramB, post
ie

while others making similar comments are not.

not necessarily about Dan.

This has been my experience, observation , others my find different.

[mrlizard123]

@GrahamB

I agree the bit where Dan wasn't doing an arm bar was a poor example of an arm bar...

Good job he mentioned that he wasn't doing an arm bar but showing something that can be used even before leading into an arm bar...

Nothing was set, everything was still open so you could see what he was talking about with the pulls on the tissues.

Having seen him with very experienced grapplers, and been on the receiving end of that and an actual arm bar, many times I can assure you both are extremely effective.