Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby amor on Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:18 am

nice clips from sensei Dan and Roy, I can relate to what Dan was saying in this first clip about keeping balance and moving within yourself to keep the energy inside the body, has parallels with my own training.

Dmitri wrote:But, you see, this is very different. Dan must obviously prove himself to semi-anonymous internet posters he never met. It's not about the art, the learning, the principles and ideas being shared. It's all about whether Dan can roll with some guy on video. 'Cause that'll surely end all arguments and satisfy everyone's appetites. It just makes perfect sense!


+1

I hope Dan and Roy wont be moved by the belittling comments and continue to post more clips in future as I did enjoy the commentary along side the demonstrations
Last edited by amor on Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:33 am

Most likely not. The man has met some heavy hitters in the IMA circles and they vetted him and most of the people I know have vetted him and say he has serious skills. I trust the man's opinion to a certain degree. The rest of the people here are a bunch of names on the internet whose opinions I could care less for.


well I guess my point was missed.

I know many people most unknown in the west who are very capable with their art.
What one finds in what he says kind of depends on ones own level and training. I've always found what he posted interesting as it reflected
many of the same things that I've heard from other sources.

Names on the "net" this is a place I come to just to talk shop...
I really don't pay to much attention to what is posted or written some I agree with some I don't.

Dan, nor any one else here IMO has nothing to prove...nor needs to.
His clip showed very nice movement. He has good control of his space and moves with it,
understanding how to move with in it.

The transitions between what might be called traditional and modern useage was well done and very clear, showing a quickness in movement
and adaptive strategy using inner principles of movement combined with relevant usage based on current modern combative arenas.
Those asking to see other things used in a fee form environment I would suggest reviewing and looking at the clips again.


He makes himself available to those who attend his seminars and brings to light IMA principles usage using a modern format.
In this aspect he is probably among others in the field, a forerunner in the development of IMA making it accessible to the gen public.

all good stuff
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:57 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby willie on Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:59 am

The infamous Dan harden. AKA, Oh Danny Boy.
Beautiful clip, Excellent skill and narrative.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby shawnsegler on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:07 am

Adam Mizner says in one of his videos that Taijiquan is not designed to fight Taijiquan, it's designed to beat everything else.


Really? "Designed"...to "Beat"....EVERYTHING else...

Really?

How could anyone feel comfortable saying this or repeat it as though it were a viable thing to say? I mean if you're talking to people who don't anything about anything, but....Really?

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:27 am

shawnsegler wrote:
Adam Mizner says in one of his videos that Taijiquan is not designed to fight Taijiquan, it's designed to beat everything else.


Really? "Designed"...to "Beat"....EVERYTHING else...

Really?

How could anyone feel comfortable saying this or repeat it as though it were a viable thing to say? I mean if you're talking to people who don't anything about anything, but....Really?

S


It's a perspective from which to consider things.

If you consider Chen as the source of what we consider Taiji, it's a correct perspective. It wasn't developed and trained to beat other people in the family, it was developed and trained to beat people using other styles. Push hands competition is stupid to me for exactly this reason. It's a training technique, not a contest, playing to win defeats the purpose.

But I believe more generally, neijin skills are intended to beat weijin skills. Neijin skills can't directly overcome neijin skills, they can only "win" where the neijin is absent, e.g. the opponent has a "lower level" and gives the better player tension and Li to work with.

So yes, the art was designed, meaning it was assembled, ordered, and evolved for a specific purpose, to beat exponents of other styles by taking a radically different approach to combat in focusing on the Neijin.

I'm open to hearing your perspective, beyond the standard nay-saying without adding anything of substance.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:41 am

Even Yang Cheng Fu's students wrote about practicing sparring in a Tai Chi environment. Adam is a Yang stylist. I have no clue how he can come to that conclusion.

Although practical Tai Chi combat practice is usually practiced more as one person attacking in a more neutral manner, with no particular style in mind, and the other person defends with Tai Chi. Maybe it's this he means? Some people though believe that you can not initiate attacks with Tai Chi and that you must always be passive waiting for the opponent to attack. But this is not either something that the old "Masters" stated. Quite the opposite actually. "If my opponent moves slightly, I arrive first."
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby northern_mantis on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:42 am

I get really tired of the old mantra about push hands just being a training method etc. etc.

It is that but it is also a whole spectrum of things from totally co-operative to all out competitive where it is no more or less like a 'fight' than a grappling match or sumo bout. Repeating that is as poor thought through a statement as suggesting it is 'fighting'.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby GrahamB on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:55 am

I guess this is why Tai Chi dominates the UFC.

(Sorry, couldn't resist... some of the convoluted thinking and justification for nonsense I've read on this thread beggars belief. I'm way beyond sitting back and cracking open a beer. I'm drunk and lying in a puddle of my own urine. Happy days!)
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:59 am

Bao wrote:Even Yang Cheng Fu's students wrote about practicing sparring in a Tai Chi environment. Adam is a Yang stylist. I have no clue how he can come to that conclusion.

Although practical Tai Chi combat practice is usually practiced more as one person attacking in a more neutral manner, with no particular style in mind, and the other person defends with Tai Chi. Maybe it's this he means? Some people though believe that you can not initiate attacks with Tai Chi and that you must always be passive waiting for the opponent to attack. But this is not either something that the old "Masters" stated. Quite the opposite actually. "If my opponent moves slightly, I arrive first."


That's where it becomes about level as I mentioned above. Neijin beats Weijin, every time. When taiji players are sparring there are a couple ways to go with it.

If they're both using Weijin then whoever has the best Weijin wins. If one has good Neijin and the other good Weijin, the Neijin wins. If both have good Neijin, then whoever has it more wins.

Adam's philosophy, from what I gather, is that Taijiquan is only Neijin, so you have to consider it from that perspective.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:04 am

northern_mantis wrote:I get really tired of the old mantra about push hands just being a training method etc. etc.

It is that but it is also a whole spectrum of things from totally co-operative to all out competitive where it is no more or less like a 'fight' than a grappling match or sumo bout. Repeating that is as poor thought through a statement as suggesting it is 'fighting'.


I consider any fighting other than "street" or war to be training.

Of course we want to do better than our opponent/partner, but winning in training is immaterial. You get more out of push hands if you're not invested in "winning".

If you want to spar, spar, if you want to grapple, grapple, push hands is best used to develop a specific set of skills. You can't do that unless you're willing to limit your responses and discipline your attacks.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:11 am

GrahamB wrote:I guess this is why Tai Chi dominates the UFC.

(Sorry, couldn't resist... some of the convoluted thinking and justification for nonsense I've read on this thread beggars belief. I'm way beyond sitting back and cracking open a beer. I'm drunk and lying in a puddle of my own urine. Happy days!)


I get it, but it misses the point. Avoiding conflict is as much a part of Taijiquan as playing the form is.

The highest and most correct expression of Taijiquan, in my opinion, is causing the opponent to mentally surrender with as little injury at possible. If that means picking them up like a baby and setting them down gently ten feet away, so be it. If it means directing their attack into a brick wall, or knocking the wind out of them, so be it.

It doesn't mean locking yourself in a cage for 20 minutes and asking a judge who did the most damage.

There are some fighters that train Taijiquan as part of their mma, Chuck liddell was one, there's another kid fighting out there right now claiming pure tjq. I think most folks recognize the immediate value and train it as a supplement the way John Wang does, rather than putting faith in the payoff and training it exclusively.

Edit: His name is Nick Osipczak.
Wikipedia wrote:On June 27, 2015, after almost 5 years off from competition, Nick returned to headline the inaugural Macto Championships. Held in the Arena:MK, Milton Keynes, Nick faced boxing-specialist Kyle Redfearn, and defeated him via submission (RNC) 2 minutes 4 seconds into the first round. This occasion marked the first time in history that the Internal Martial Arts (Neijia) and in particular T'ai chi ch'uan were represented in the sport of Mixed Martial Arts. Osipczak is expected to fight again for Macto Championships, with the view to returning to the UFC, and has publicly stated he aims to win the UFC belt by 2018.[10] Nick revealed a painting he had created the week leading up to the bout, entitled “Victory”, and announced that he will be releasing a new painting to coincide with each subsequent fight.[8] Nick used the ancient Chinese symbol known as the Bagua on his walk-out T-shirt and banner for this fight.[11][12]
Last edited by oragami_itto on Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:22 am

oragami_itto wrote:That's where it becomes about level as I mentioned above. Neijin beats Weijin, every time. When taiji players are sparring there are a couple ways to go with it.
If they're both using Weijin then whoever has the best Weijin wins. If one has good Neijin and the other good Weijin, the Neijin wins. If both have good Neijin, then whoever has it more wins.
Adam's philosophy, from what I gather, is that Taijiquan is only Neijin, so you have to consider it from that perspective.


I wouldn't completely agree with this view, but I won't comment further so to not unnecessarily derail the thread further out of respect for the topic.
... But if you want to discuss, pls open a new thread.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby shawnsegler on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:41 am

I'm open to hearing your perspective, beyond the standard nay-saying without adding anything of substance.


Oh, please. If you can't grok that what I posted was substantive that's not my issue.

...that being said, if you post something on a public board, get used to people engaging with what's going on freely around in on or around what you're talking about. It's a necessary aspect of our beloved freedom of speech/expression.

Anyway, as far as this thread is concerned I am, indeed, a bystander with no vested interest in what's going on...and yet...see how freely I move. If it interests me I may comment, I may not if I feel like what I have to say might serve how I feel on the subject in some way...or not.

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Gus Mueller on Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:10 am

junglist wrote:Seriously?

This is why Dan didn't want to post videos. It's because idiots would come out of the woodwork and say this and that. Please don't ruin it for everyone you trolls.

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Gus Mueller on Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:17 am

oragami_itto wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I guess this is why Tai Chi dominates the UFC.

(Sorry, couldn't resist... some of the convoluted thinking and justification for nonsense I've read on this thread beggars belief. I'm way beyond sitting back and cracking open a beer. I'm drunk and lying in a puddle of my own urine. Happy days!)


I get it, but it misses the point. Avoiding conflict is as much a part of Taijiquan as playing the form is.

The highest and most correct expression of Taijiquan, in my opinion, is causing the opponent to mentally surrender with as little injury at possible. If that means picking them up like a baby and setting them down gently ten feet away, so be it. If it means directing their attack into a brick wall, or knocking the wind out of them, so be it.

It doesn't mean locking yourself in a cage for 20 minutes and asking a judge who did the most damage.

There are some fighters that train Taijiquan as part of their mma, Chuck liddell was one, there's another kid fighting out there right now claiming pure tjq. I think most folks recognize the immediate value and train it as a supplement the way John Wang does, rather than putting faith in the payoff and training it exclusively.


Ah yes, The Kid With No Name.

WTF is "weijin"? Are you writing for someone with an unusual dialect or would you like to juoyn the rest of us on Planet Pinyin?

勁之為勁. 氣由於筋致柔. 有彈力已耳. 惟柔乃能與對手黏連相隨. 能黏連. 則我之氣與彼相按觸. 欲測其氣之動靜. 故曰聽. 則拳論所謂. 彼微動. 我先動之機. 亦在於此.
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