Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

[Dmitri]

Chris, thanks for posting those clips; I'm glad Dan decided to do it. I know it must've been hard (or he was drunk when he agreed? )

[junglist]

You do know it's very easy to throw people who are off balanced right?
I would love for you to prove Dan Harden wrong! That way we can know you are the man to learn from!

You did see his flat palm and fingers and thumb not gripping Sweatsuit's arm at all, right? He could have walked away, grabbed a cup of coffee, come back and slapped his equally flat not grabby palm against Sweatsuit's arm and picked up where he left off. If your idea that he was PUT off balance and was thrown is correct, I wonder how he gets through the day bumping into various people in minor ways without constantly doing "martial cartwheels".

I appreciate that you played the "let's you and him fight" card, but still, it's fake, fake, fake. The part that came after was even worse, the white guy gi laying on his stomach standing on his tippy-toes because someone is twiddling his fingers.

1) it's a frigging training model. Not a fight. Know the difference.
2) I'm not telling you to fight. I'm telling you to prove us wrong that what Dan does is not effective or fake, as you say. Go there, grab his wrist or play push hands, and prevent him from taking your balance. If you can do that, you have something special.
3) if you can't do the above, shut up. Your opinion is worthless.

[windwalker]

"Dmitri"]You really need to stop equating what you do with what Dan does. From your clip, and from having felt and practiced with people from lineages very close to yours, I'd mortgage my house in a bet that it is utterly different.

It is, never said it was the same. I had thought at one time by the verbiage used it was but was informed it was not..
What I did say is that some who've met us both have commented to me that we may say similar things, but do things
in very different ways.

I have also said that some commenting on what chinese masters do in a similar vain somehow suspend the same comments they might make
had it been someone else and not Dan's work.

Those commenting positively either have met Dan, or do work that is "similar" in nature judging only by the clip.

Those that have not to their credit have made similar negitive comments about both,
whether I agree with them or not at least they'er consistent.

if you want to continue to derail the thread be my guest.

[origami_itto]

But I also know from a teacher's perspective that you sometimes get so much into your own ideas that you sometimes can forget other circumstances outside of the principles you work on right at the moment. I bet that this can happen to Dan as well. My conclusion is that Dan should do the same on someone more well reversed in ground fighting and film it, preferably against Graham. Then we can all have a satisfying answer.

I agree. I'm not one to issue challenges on other's behalf, but Dan did invite the doubters to the mat.

I'm of the opinion that if you call someone's art fake and won't meet them to discover the truth, then that's really all the answer we need.

I wouldn't expect the Trollshido artists to meet the challenge, but Graham is a serious martial artist, should be a walk in the park.

[northern_mantis]

1) it's a frigging training model. Not a fight. Know the difference.
.

Whilst that is true it is not an excuse to suspend the laws of physics as they apply to a dynamic human body. I felt that the videos strayed that way once or twice. But I've been guilty of that too so don't want to be overly critical, on the whole it looked like fun work.

Maybe if a training model can be separated from fighting it wouldn't be beyond us to build a discussion model that creates reasonable outcomes aside from 'you have to feel it' or degenerating in to something more unpleasant?!

[windwalker]

Whilst that is true it is not an excuse to suspend the laws of physics as they apply to a dynamic human body. I felt that the videos strayed that way once or twice. But I've been guilty of that too so don't want to be overly critical, on the whole it looked like fun work.

I thought the clips where presented well with good explanations.
I would not say they suspended the laws of physics as you mentioned.
For conversation can you mention what laws and time stamp along with clip?

I'm sure many here have experienced things they couldn't explain well.

yes it looked "fun" should be for those experiencing something very different.

"gen comment"
Rather then shut people down, it might be better to listen whether one agrees or not.

[origami_itto]

Maybe if a training model can be separated from fighting it wouldn't be beyond us to build a discussion model that creates reasonable outcomes aside from 'you have to feel it' or degenerating in to something more unpleasant?!

I don't think that's possible. Internal arts are mysterious by nature. You have to feel them to believe them enough to start working on understanding.

Like take what I assume is a shared experience among us all, an orgasm.

Could you really explain that to somebody in a meaningful way? The only way to talk about it is to refer to experience. Maybe if the person explaining and the person learning both had common, and extensive, experience with meditation could you get to something approaching clarity, but not really.

Or describing what it's like to have kids, not the cynical bitching that shitty parents do, but the purity and intensity of parental love. You can't really understand it unless you've felt it. Sure you can get an academic understanding, but it's pointless.

So, like here



When he says "i'm feeding it", the way I understand this is tai chi "sticking energy" and "bone freezing energy", which relies on a healthy conceptualization of Qi.

A base external understanding, if I'm correct, is that the angle of his arm is bending the wrist back and there is a steady pressure into the limb through the hand, which makes the uke want to relieve that pressure, but there's no good angle to escape it, whenever he tries to move out of the way, Dan just moves to close off his escape. He's steadily feeding jin into the limb to keep it frozen.

Qi being the dialogue of intention between Dan and the Uke, similar to the dialogue between the swordsman and the weapon. It's applying force and sensing the state of the object and entering a state of understanding of the object, where it has freedom of movement, where it is bound up, where it's strong, where it's weak, where it wants to move, etc. The way I would describe it in taiji terms would be Dan has threaded his Qi through the nine bends pearl of the Uke's body and gained complete control of it.

[Chris Li]

Chris, thanks for posting those clips; I'm glad Dan decided to do it. I know it must've been hard (or he was drunk when he agreed? )

Roy made him do it. Of course, they may have been drunk at the time...

Best,

Chris

[shawnsegler]

This thread is retarded and sad and hilarious all at the same time.

S- kicks back and cracks beer.

[aiasthewall]

That was pretty rad, and makes me sad I haven't made it to a seminar yet. Thank you!

[Greg J]

Thanks for sharing these videos, Chris!

I haven't been able to watch all of them yet, but wanted to chime in and say:

a) thanks Dan (and Sensei Goldberg) for filming and posting the clips
b) PLEASE let's not have another thread end up locked or in the BTDT pit!

I too noticed that a couple of times Uke seemed to be over-reacting. However, having served as a crash test dummy at seminars before, I can attest to the fact that after you've been softened up, slammed, and hit a few times at a seminar it is easy to start tapping early and over-reacting. I suspect it is this, rather than fakery, at work. I do agree that the manner in which Uke was pulling way at 2:05 (1st video, part 4) looked very artificial, however I felt like Dan was using this to demonstrate the concepts of following and flowing.

One thing that I noticed and appreciated from the video I did watch was how Dan moved. I have no doubt that if he got his hands on me, I'd be in big trouble.

I hope to have more to share after I've had a chance to watch (and digest) the videos.

Best,
Greg

[bartekb]

trying to understand why so many grapplers and mma guys have that wtf look in the face when rolling with Dan and struggle for survive instead of just submit him.Are all of us stupid? Probably

Are those tha same guys that tap out because "the flesh and skin of the arm are in terrible pain the whole time."?
theres basically no health risk in going into a grappling match - Instead of posting those lenghty explanations Dan would have just rolled with 1 grappler and film it, you know as virtually every poerson doing grappling does all the time.

[PshanATL]

Good to see Dan on video. Despite some people's harsh criticism, I'm sure many people appreciate the video and Dan's teachings. I've felt that stickiness in taiji and other refined martial arts. Subtle off balancing and adhesion through rotation among other things. I like Dan's stuff because he is very clear about what is happening anatomically instead of only talking of feelings or chi which are hard to describe outside of 1 on 1 training.

[Gus Mueller]

1) it's a frigging training model. Not a fight. Know the difference.

I know the difference. A fight is real and the particular part of the demo I referenced, chosen by clicking at random and it's the only part I watched and the only part I'm commenting on, is obviously fake.

2) I'm not telling you to fight. I'm telling you to prove us wrong that what Dan does is not effective or fake, as you say. Go there, grab his wrist or play push hands, and prevent him from taking your balance. If you can do that, you have something special.

I guarantee I could put my flat non-grabbing hand on his forearm without rising up on my tippy-toes.

3) if you can't do the above, shut up. Your opinion is worthless.

That seems a trifle brusque. Did I whizz in your Wheaties?

The day Mike Sigman and I agree on something is a good day to re-examine your world-view.

[junglist]

1) it's a frigging training model. Not a fight. Know the difference.

I know the difference. A fight is real and the particular part of the demo I referenced, chosen by clicking at random and it's the only part I watched and the only part I'm commenting on, is obviously fake.

2) I'm not telling you to fight. I'm telling you to prove us wrong that what Dan does is not effective or fake, as you say. Go there, grab his wrist or play push hands, and prevent him from taking your balance. If you can do that, you have something special.

I guarantee I could put my flat non-grabbing hand on his forearm without rising up on my tippy-toes.

3) if you can't do the above, shut up. Your opinion is worthless.

That seems a trifle brusque. Did I whizz in your Wheaties?

The day Mike Sigman and I agree on something is a good day to re-examine your world-view.

Again, your opinion is worthless, troll.