Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Rabbit on Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:23 pm

Ok, interesting, so what is the difference exactly, in simple terms?
This whole thing of, it all looks the same but only a tiny few get it is very unhelpful. Let's have, say a couple of exercises and an explanation. If it's 'secret' or only for student, well then.... Pah
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:02 pm

Rabbit wrote:The picture shows the sort of thing you might see in any aikido class. It might well 'feel different' when Dan does it , but that's the point. Dan mercilessly slates virtually everyone else showing this kind of thing, never offering clips of himself. When he does, it looks exactly the same (but you have to feel it). Then he said 'that's not what I do anyway'



Thanks for succinctly expressing what I had wrote in a roundabout way.
When I lived in Oahu back in the 80s a good friend of mine into aikido took me to one of the Aikido gyms he was teaching at the time. While it looked interesting it wasn't really something that I was looking for.
He would later suggest I try taiji which I did, the teacher taught what
was called "outlaw taiji" Sam Kekina
a noted practitioner of the art in his time.

He did mentioned the different ideas expressed back then between what seemed to be 2 factions of akido which reading the many treads here
kind of made me reflect on some of things he mentioned back then.

Yes to echo your observations they did do the same type of demos shown.

My point some how lost was that as you’ve pointed out what is shown whether
by pic or clip, when done by others has been commented on negatively by “Dan” and many here.

Many citing and deriding the rational when used by others
that it has to be felt obviously for those who question what they
don't understand, have not felt or can not see.

I have no questions about the clip, only noted what seems to be
a double standard here when viewing such things.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:18 pm

It's amusing to watch how it seems completely impossible for you to even take into account the simple fact that many people who post here and comment on these clips and photos, who have actually been there, in person, on more than one occasion, might actually be telling you the truth about what is/was happening there, and what Dan's work is like... And that somehow they (we) are all either collectively lying, or are all completely delusional


Which is the same argument that you and the others use when what is posted, clips, pics or what ever garners the same responses along with the same questions.

despite all of our collective MA (and life) experience, age, etc. Not one person, not two -- by now you've heard from probably more than 10.
Truly fascinating.


Yes it is fascinating in that those who’ve had more or experiences that apparently
you and the others have not only point out the obvious.
It looks the same, actually I was not surprised. I understood just by reading his post
that it had to look something like what many others "show"
which now he has allowed to be posted.

can you explain what was going on in the clip shown?
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby willie on Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:29 pm

windwalker wrote:
It's amusing to watch how it seems completely impossible for you to even take into account the simple fact that many people who post here and comment on these clips and photos, who have actually been there, in person, on more than one occasion, might actually be telling you the truth about what is/was happening there, and what Dan's work is like... And that somehow they (we) are all either collectively lying, or are all completely delusional


Which is the same argument that you and the others use when what is posted, clips, pics or what ever garnners the same responses along with the same questions.

despite all of our collective MA (and life) experience, age, etc. Not one person, not two -- by now you've heard from probably more than 10.
Truly fascinating.


Yes it is fascinating in that those who’ve had more or experiences that apparently
you and the others have not only point out the obvious.
It looks the same

can you explain what was going on in the clip shown?


if your talking about the other clip with the woo woo of the guy writhing in pain over nothing at all, well that's simple, Total Bullshit.
But if your thinking that the guy in question doesn't have the skills to bring harm to someone, your wrong.
why someone engages in total bullshit, i have no idea. Why waste your thoughts on such matters?
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:39 pm

willie wrote: if your talking about the other clip with the woo woo of the guy writhing in pain over nothing at all, well that's simple, Total Bullshit.
But if your thinking that the guy in question doesn't have the skills to bring harm to someone, your wrong.
why someone engages in total bullshit, i have no idea. Why waste your thoughts on such matters?


not an issue for me,, really

just some post seem to be directed at me I thought
that I'd share my views on the posts. I'd rather the
discussion be about the clips.

Whether I'm right or wrong is not the issue nor is it a point I care about.
Everyone has their own view points and experiences.
They can make up their own minds..
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Yugen on Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Rabbit wrote:Ok, interesting, so what is the difference exactly, in simple terms?
This whole thing of, it all looks the same but only a tiny few get it is very unhelpful. Let's have, say a couple of exercises and an explanation. If it's 'secret' or only for student, well then.... Pah


... deleted by request of someone who claims to represent Dan.

... I personally don't belong to any organizations to specifically avoid martial arts politics like this governed by "those who know" ... I'm for open teaching and sharing. But I'll respect the wishes and keep training.
Last edited by Yugen on Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Chris Li on Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:53 pm

Yugen wrote:
Rabbit wrote:Ok, interesting, so what is the difference exactly, in simple terms?
This whole thing of, it all looks the same but only a tiny few get it is very unhelpful. Let's have, say a couple of exercises and an explanation. If it's 'secret' or only for student, well then.... Pah


The picture could be showing components of a couple exercises:
winding of tissue - the bones are kept in place but the tissue of legs are being wound in connection out to the hands. The people in the picture can feel significant spiraling movement of tissue up and down the legs, even down to the ankles. The goal is to loosen and connect tissue even when standing and can be accelerated to facilitate in power generation out to the hands. we're not talking muscle flexing either.

spiraling - using femoral head rotation to open and close the kua the spiraling of the tissue is amplified. Using the leg bows properly. This movement then amplifies the loosened connected tissue movement paths.

other things - the people feeling may be feeling front and back of the legs. The femoral head rotation creates an equal yin/yang rotation and the people will feel their hands being evenly pulled around the leg if they're holding front and back.

Intent is part of it too. I don't know anyone in Aikido who has done this or can demonstrate it, but I'm not an Aikido guy either.


Also, seeing that everything moves, turns, and winds together (at least, in this particular photo).

Tohei did a lot of good things, and made some very good use of imagery. However, he was never able (or willing) to really explain how or why things happened and didn't (IME) take things up past a fairly basic level. He himself was quite powerful, but he had discarded most of Morihei Ueshiba's language and was working to find his own ways to explain what he was doing, with (IMO) some mixed results.

Best,

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Patrick on Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:47 am

I would rather be interested in where exactly did he learn that skills and how?
If he did learn it on his own, what did he do to discover it?
:P
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby bartekb on Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:59 am

thats primitive judo forced throw:
Image
thats Dan, beeing super soft, not forceful at all
Image

I can fully understand what judo guy is doing when it comes to body mechanics, Dan is too ellusive for me.
now, whats this obsession on beeing filmed?
I went to Andre Galvao seminar recently - not only whole thing has been filmed,
at the end of seminar Andre sparred with virtually anyone that managed to get to him - there was a queue - for like good 40 minutes, this has also been filmed,
so a guy beeing the best in the world in grappling dont care if he gets filmed sparring with random people he doesnt know at all in the country he doesnt know in a club he visited few times,
Last edited by bartekb on Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Rabbit on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:07 pm

Doubt galvau had any problems.
De mystification leading to complete integrity.

Re the previous post, I think they say they had the same teacher, which is interesting.

Roy though, credits his ability to being told to watch the sea for ages. An approach which may not work for everyone.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Patrick on Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:03 am

I already have watched this video, where he says where he learned. But yet he is constantly saying his method is different. But he cannot say whats different.
Yes, I already know... I am a nobody and he is not obligated to tell nobodies on the internet anything.

I do not even care if he has really unusual skill. It is personally pointless to me, when the method is not possible to put into words.
Just because I read on an Olympic athletes training method, does not make me an Olympic level athlete either, but still
the method is understandable and quantifiable.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby AlexF on Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:40 am

Patrick wrote:I already have watched this video, where he says where he learned. But yet he is constantly saying his method is different. But he cannot say whats different.
Yes, I already know... I am a nobody and he is not obligated to tell nobodies on the internet anything.

I do not even care if he has really unusual skill. It is personally pointless to me, when the method is not possible to put into words.
Just because I read on an Olympic athletes training method, does not make me an Olympic level athlete either, but still
the method is understandable and quantifiable.



You said it, not being obligated to divulge anything on the internet.

Who said the method is not possible to put into words?
You.

Why don't you ask anyone whose been to 3 seminars or more if they understand the method?
Doing it, is another matter, doing it well...a lot of Shugyo/eating bitter required.

I've been to quite a few seminars with Dan over the past 5 years, whenever I get a chance.
I've got a couple hundred pages worth of notes from these seminars which include, theoretical explanations, practical exercises that marry with them, general discussions and comparisons between methods that various attendees have been exposed to.

There are no secrets between the people that train, I've shared what I have with people who are interested, have been to seminars and on the same page.
A few people here have them. We discuss our notes, share them between us in the hope they help us to jog our memory and ultimately understand the work better.
What we don't do is publicly argue about semantics, most discussions are held by PM, sorry if its not very entertaining :P

At the end of the day, it keeps getting repeated again and again, you need to feel this stuff, have it explained and put into context.
I have yet to meet someone who figured it out without being shown, Dan included. Once its yours, you can express it in a multitude of ways and arts.

Once you've felt it being done on you then explanations start to make sense and there is an obvious logic to it all.
Most seem to want to bypass this part assuming its something they've already felt, I certainly thought I had it pegged.
After feeling it a discussion can be had Eg. why didn't he release his grab, he could just punch him with the other hand etc.
The thing is most who have been to a few seminars already know the answers as they "have started to train the method themselves".

The arguments always seem to be had by parties that don't have hands on experience.
Of course, the other argument is that we have all been converted and willingly throw ourselves, tank, like looking stupid writhing around in pretend pain blah blah ::)
I would have thought though, the same experience had by over 1,000 would say something?

Lets say Michael Jordan released a manual on his personal method of playing basketball and you read the manual and he attributed his success on visualisation, you would say its understandable and quantifiable? So your understanding wouldn't differ from a neurologist, or a fitness instructor or another professional basketball player. It would be the same because it was laid our in a manual. Or would you need MJ to personally explain what he meant, why, give you examples?
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby jaime_g on Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:36 am

I do not even care if he has really unusual skill. It is personally pointless to me, when the method is not possible to put into words.
Just because I read on an Olympic athletes training method, does not make me an Olympic level athlete either, but still
the method is understandable and quantifiable.


I wouldnt spend any minute of my time with Dan if he couldnt teach his method. He can and he does all the time, just not in the internet.

The marriage between daito ryu aiki and Dan's method to learn aiki is IMO very similar to the link between xingyiquan and yiquan.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Patrick on Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:46 am

Yeah could all be, I would check it out anyway, if it would be remotely near me (in the future). I tried once, but he did not even respond.

I was very convinced of a japanese IMA teacher once, I did visit his seminar and it all disappeared. But still open for a contrary experience.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:20 am

AlexF wrote:

The arguments always seem to be had by parties that don't have hands on experience.
Of course, the other argument is that we have all been converted and willingly throw ourselves, tank, like looking stupid writhing around in pretend pain blah blah ::)


Which are the same arguments used by some of the same people commenting when commenting negatively on others clips not having been there.

I would have thought though, the same experience had by over 1,000 would say something?

Does it matter how many people have felt it If the discussions are only held by PM among those that have attended the seminars
why post on a public site knowing that things shown will be questioned.

It tends to lead to counter post
t's amusing to watch how it seems completely impossible for you to even take into account the simple fact that many people who post here and comment on these clips and photos, who have actually been there, in person, on more than one occasion, might actually be telling you the truth about what is/was happening there, and what Dan's work is like... And that somehow they (we) are all either collectively lying, or are all completely delusional


Just looking at the clips I myself have no problems, questions, nor arguments with what is presented
I do question the point of presenting anything:

If “it has to be felt” why post on a public discussion board.
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