Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby mrlizard123 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:44 am

From Facebook
Dan Harden wrote:The recent videos that I appear in:
Much has been said about the work appearing in the videos being "what I do." The truth is that what I currently do and teach appears in only a few brief moments on the videos. This is not how I normally teach. This seminar was a Daito ryu oriented seminar. In it Roy and I offered an explanation of how I took some things from classic Daito ryu waza and changed them for use in more combative environments. I also did not cover any internal aspects and how to train it. It was more of peak into my past - hence me doing the techniques. Something that no one around the world has ever seen me do for the past twenty years.
My last comments are on the nature of ukemi (voluntarily cooperating for the successful completion of a technique). Ukemi is indeed a voluntary process. If any of the men in those videos (including myself) had decided to turn on and use their connected structure? You could never move them that way. So, why bother doing it? It is to help the person doing the techniques to develop a feel, a skill, that they later use in increasingly stressful pressure testing - to include sparring or perhaps, fighting.
Make no mistake, there is a tremendous amount of work to do to first develop the skills in a cooperative venue. You cannot transcend to simply using them combatively. In short, if you haven't fought, or at least engage in sparring or grappling? You can never transfer these skill sets over to that environment. It is not wise to make assumptions of effectiveness based on the earned experiences of other people. You need to develope your own.
mrlizard123
Santi
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:16 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:00 am

In essence we are being asked to believe the only time a clip of him has been allowed is only one of the few times he has done these types of demos. Makes sense “not”

Dan, himself on different occasions has mentioned that most would not believe what he does and so avoided this by not allowing clips of him to be shown. Pics of him in seminars held in HI show much of the same type of work being done eliciting the same type of questions. I don’t have a problem with what was shown, others might. Just find it odd that out of all the clips the one that is available is one he walks back by suggesting it's not really what he does.

Ok ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6124
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby mrlizard123 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:30 am

Having attended many seminars with Dan I can attest that it is the case that what you're seeing bears very little resemblance to a "usual" seminar or how Dan expresses his skills; this was a seminar with a particular purpose.

I'm not looking to convince or convert anyone from their opinions or perspectives nor defend anything though and people are free to believe what is offered in video and/or commentary or not :)
Last edited by mrlizard123 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
mrlizard123
Santi
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:16 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:34 am

Image

Ok

Not a comment on his work only
on what was presented.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6124
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:42 am

“I'm not looking to convince or convert anyone from their opinions or perspectives nor defend anything though and people are free to believe what is offered in video and/or commentary or not “

Here’s the rub. He has commented on others clips showing basically the same things
in a negative way regardless of what one thinks of it, or how one views it.

Now that a clip is available for comparison we are being told it’s something that he doesn't really focus on
offering some commentary explaining what it is, which in other cases he might comment negatively on.


Just pointing this out….
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6124
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Dmitri on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:00 am

windwalker wrote:Image

Ok

Not a comment on his work only
on what was presented.

That's a demonstration so that people can feel what's happening (in Dan's body).
Look at what the pair of people behind them/to the left are doing -- that's the kind of exercises you're likely to see and what people do. (Plus a ton of solo work).


It's amusing to watch how it seems completely impossible for you to even take into account the simple fact that many people who post here and comment on these clips and photos, who have actually been there, in person, on more than one occasion, might actually be telling you the truth about what is/was happening there, and what Dan's work is like... And that somehow they (we) are all either collectively lying, or are all completely delusional -- despite all of our collective MA (and life) experience, age, etc. Not one person, not two -- by now you've heard from probably more than 10.
Truly fascinating. :)
Last edited by Dmitri on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9375
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby mrlizard123 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:02 am

windwalker wrote:Image

Ok

Not a comment on his work only
on what was presented.


Not sure what this picture is supposed to indicate with respect to the point you seem to be trying to make sorry; that's not a technique in that still frame image...

The essence of what Dan is doing is very hard to see without the right experience (note this and my following statements at not qualitative comments on anyone else's movement/skill/etc) and whilst things often look the same there are subtle visual differences which indicate significant underlying differences in mechanics. I'm sure this argument could be made by others and that's fine too.

I'm not going to debate what's good/bad/right/wrong/better/worse. If people are happy doing what they're doing, great; some folks might find that when they encounter a different paradigm their perspectives change.

I'm not looking to big up or put down, just commenting to try to provide some clarity of the idea of conceptual difference despite superficial similarities.
Last edited by mrlizard123 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
mrlizard123
Santi
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:16 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Rabbit on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:23 am

The picture shows the sort of thing you might see in any aikido class. It might well 'feel different' when Dan does it , but that's the point. Dan mercilessly slates virtually everyone else showing this kind of thing, never offering clips of himself. When he does, it looks exactly the same (but you have to feel it). Then he said 'that's not what I do anyway'
Rabbit
Wuji
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:57 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby mrlizard123 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:28 am

Rabbit wrote:The picture shows the sort of thing you might see in any aikido class. It might well 'feel different' when Dan does it , but that's the point. Dan mercilessly slates virtually everyone else showing this kind of thing, never offering clips of himself. When he does, it looks exactly the same (but you have to feel it). Then he said 'that's not what I do anyway'


Having studied aikido for years I've yet to see what's happening in the photo in a regular class. Perhaps because I know what's actually happening before and after not just looking at the snapshot, I dunno.

Unsure what it is you think you're seeing...

Or, to put it a different way, you must have interesting aikido classes; you don't do waza in your aikido classes?

Am just curious as would be interested to see aikido people who train in any way that resembles what's happening in this picture.
mrlizard123
Santi
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:16 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby mrlizard123 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:35 am

Dmitri wrote:
windwalker wrote:Image

Ok

Not a comment on his work only
on what was presented.

That's a demonstration so that people can feel what's happening (in Dan's body).
Look at what the pair of people behind them/to the left are doing -- that's the kind of exercises you're likely to see and what people do. (Plus a ton of solo work).


It's amusing to watch how it seems completely impossible for you to even take into account the simple fact that many people who post here and comment on these clips and photos, who have actually been there, in person, on more than one occasion, might actually be telling you the truth about what is/was happening there, and what Dan's work is like... And that somehow they (we) are all either collectively lying, or are all completely delusional -- despite all of our collective MA (and life) experience, age, etc. Not one person, not two -- by now you've heard from probably more than 10.
Truly fascinating. :)


What's more fascinating to me is that I've never met you but we kinda cross posted the same thing... how come I've never seen you at the meetings where we conspire to collectively state an opinion? I think you're an imposter and aren't really delusional/lying at all... Wait, what? :P

Gotta love the internet! ;)
mrlizard123
Santi
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:16 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby jaime_g on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:36 am

Image
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Dmitri on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:44 am

mrlizard123 wrote:What's more fascinating to me is that I've never met you but we kinda cross posted the same thing... how come I've never seen you at the meetings where we conspire to collectively state an opinion?

I understand your confusion, grasshopper. You see, I'm past all that "physical presence" nonsense now. I'm at a much higher level, where I can telepathically perceive what The Collective is plotting at any given moment.
Last edited by Dmitri on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9375
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Rabbit on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:46 am

mrlizard123 wrote:
Rabbit wrote:The picture shows the sort of thing you might see in any aikido class. It might well 'feel different' when Dan does it , but that's the point. Dan mercilessly slates virtually everyone else showing this kind of thing, never offering clips of himself. When he does, it looks exactly the same (but you have to feel it). Then he said 'that's not what I do anyway'


Having studied aikido for years I've yet to see what's happening in the photo in a regular class. Perhaps because I know what's actually happening before and after not just looking at the snapshot, I dunno.

Unsure what it is you think you're seeing...

Or, to put it a different way, you must have interesting aikido classes; you don't do waza in your aikido classes?

Am just curious as would be interested to see aikido people who train in any way that resembles what's happening in this picture.


If you do any aikido from Tohei's line or in the UK Ken Williams line you will see at least half of each class doing these kinds of exercises, called coordination of mind and body
Rabbit
Wuji
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:57 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby mrlizard123 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:56 am

Actually now you mention it, I do recall a seminar where similar looking exercises to the basic pushing test was done. This was before I met Dan, I found that while I was apparently doing well, the clarity regarding WHAT we were supposed to be doing was somewhat lacking, which proved a problem for my training partner who was told they weren't doing what was necessary but was left unclear as to what they should be doing to fix it.

In terms of goal and possibly the fact they push a bit to test sure there's likely similarity but in depth of explanation and qualitative results I think we're in different games altogether... IMO YMMV etc etc
mrlizard123
Santi
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:16 am

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg

Postby Chris Li on Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:36 pm

Rabbit wrote:The picture shows the sort of thing you might see in any aikido class. It might well 'feel different' when Dan does it , but that's the point. Dan mercilessly slates virtually everyone else showing this kind of thing, never offering clips of himself. When he does, it looks exactly the same (but you have to feel it). Then he said 'that's not what I do anyway'


Actually, I took that picture, and I agree with mrlizard123 that it's quite different from what you'll see in an Aikido class, even in Ki Society classes. Koichi Tohei spent a lot of time in Hawaii, and he never taught anything like it, in my experience, except in a very very basic sense.

Best,

Chris
Last edited by Chris Li on Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chris Li
Mingjing
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:47 pm
Location: Honolulu, HI

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest