Grandmasters Pushing Hands

[origami_itto]

Li Enjiu vs. Unknown.

Wei Shuren "vs" Men Huifeng

Li Bingci vs. Lin Mogen.

Liu Chengde vs. Unknown.

Xin Yuhe vs. Men Huifeng

[Rhen]

Some of these 'masters' come from teachers with huge stories of high level "skills". there was nothing impressive in any of this, as the skills didn't show in the exchanges.

[C.J.W.]

This video has been posted and discussed many times in the past both on this forum as well as others. Some people say it is proof that "high-level" Taiji goes out of the window when the opponent is resistant and also well-versed in PH.

I tend to think that some of the masters in question may have held back in order to be diplomatic. Embarrassing a fellow master in public while being filmed most likely would have resulted in lineage wars that none of them wanted any part of.

[willie]

The clip is epic.
There is just nothing left to do without operating in haste. "other then strikes that is". they have removed mostly all the errors and are returning to wuji.

[Bao]

I tend to think that some of the masters in question may have held back in order to be diplomatic.

Holding back? I don't know. Maybe they some of them could have use more speed? But what would that accomplish?
... I think people tend to look at what they see here from the wrong perspective. Of course they are not going to throw each other around. Of course they will most of the times just cancel out the other's attack. If you look at the second round, Men Huifeng grasps Wei Shuren under his armpits and tries to lift him straight up, several times. Wei stands there completely immovable. Absolutely nothing happens in his feet and legs. In my book at least, this counts as skill.

[windwalker]

I tend to think that some of the masters in question may have held back in order to be diplomatic.

Holding back? I don't know. Maybe they some of them could have use more speed? But what would that accomplish?
... I think people tend to look at what they see here from the wrong perspective. Of course they are not going to throw each other around. Of course they will most of the times just cancel out the other's attack. If you look at the second round, Men Huifeng grasps Wei Shuren under his armpits and tries to lift him straight up, several times. Wei stands there completely immovable. Absolutely nothing happens in his feet and legs. In my book at least, this counts as skill.

Agree

Think about it, they practiced and are noted for "canceling out the other's attack" understanding the meaning between emptiness and fullness.
In this case it's a matter of who can be more empty which is why it looks as it does. Most of the action taken place inside. Some do get frustrated and allowing their egos to take over. When this happens they lose it and use force which any one of the masters can easily use and capitalize on. As such it's not as dynamic as other clips where they are dealing with those who do use force.

While in Taiwan many yrs back I pushed with a local teacher there, we touched hands as they say, no outer movement and then released laughing about it as we do so. The students confused asked what happened. The teacher explained in Chinese that we both could feel each other's intent the real battle was inside. The teacher would later become a very good friend of mine, a very kind and dedicated taiji teacher and man, recently passed away may he rest in peace.

http://blog.xuite.net/mapletaichi/twblog/134072638

[origami_itto]

While in Taiwan many yrs back I pushed with a local teacher there, we touched hands as they say, no outer movement and then released laughing about it as we do so. The students confused asked what happened. The teacher explained in Chinese that we both could feel each other's intent the real battle was inside. The teacher would later become a very good friend of mine, a very kind and dedicated taiji teacher and man, recently passed away may he rest in peace.

I had an experience like that this weekend, very educational.

[C.J.W.]

I tend to think that some of the masters in question may have held back in order to be diplomatic.

Holding back? I don't know. Maybe they some of them could have use more speed? But what would that accomplish?
... I think people tend to look at what they see here from the wrong perspective. Of course they are not going to throw each other around. Of course they will most of the times just cancel out the other's attack. If you look at the second round, Men Huifeng grasps Wei Shuren under his armpits and tries to lift him straight up, several times. Wei stands there completely immovable. Absolutely nothing happens in his feet and legs. In my book at least, this counts as skill.

Hmm...are you implying that your perspective is correct?

Since you've already brought up Wei Shuren and acknowledged that he is skilled, don't you think that he could have issued a burst of short jin and knocked Men Huifeng back --or even on his arse -- if he'd wanted to? (He certainly had his hands on Men's chest almost throughout the entire match, and it wouldn't have been difficult for someone of his caliber.) Instead, he simply felt and listened to Men's jin, and the two of them walked away all smiles.

If that's not holding back, I don't know what is.

[C.J.W.]

I tend to think that some of the masters in question may have held back in order to be diplomatic.

Holding back? I don't know. Maybe they some of them could have use more speed? But what would that accomplish?
... I think people tend to look at what they see here from the wrong perspective. Of course they are not going to throw each other around. Of course they will most of the times just cancel out the other's attack. If you look at the second round, Men Huifeng grasps Wei Shuren under his armpits and tries to lift him straight up, several times. Wei stands there completely immovable. Absolutely nothing happens in his feet and legs. In my book at least, this counts as skill.

Agree

Think about it, they practiced and are noted for "canceling out the other's attack" understanding the meaning between emptiness and fullness.
In this case it's a matter of who can be more empty which is why it looks as it does. Most of the action taken place inside. Some do get frustrated and allowing their egos to take over. When this happens they lose it and use force which any one of the masters can easily use and capitalize on. As such it's not as dynamic as other clips where they are dealing with those who do use force.

While in Taiwan many yrs back I pushed with a local teacher there, we touched hands as they say, no outer movement and then released laughing about it as we do so. The students confused asked what happened. The teacher explained in Chinese that we both could feel each other's intent the real battle was inside. The teacher would later become a very good friend of mine, a very kind and dedicated taiji teacher and man, recently passed away may he rest in peace.

True. But there were also "wu de" (martial ethics), "ke qi" (politeness), and -- most importantly -- "face" involved.

The teacher felt that you had skills and decided to show respect. By doing so, he was not only being courteous to a fellow Taiji practitioner, but also avoided the the potential embarrassment of looking bad in front of his students had he chosen to really "go at it" with you surrounded by their watchful eyes.

P.S. The whole business with "face" might be hard for non-Chinese to understand, but to many CMA practitioners, especially ones who are older and more traditional, it's about as important as life itself!

[windwalker]

P.S. The whole business with "face" might be hard for non-Chinese to understand, but to many CMA practitioners, especially ones who are older and more traditional, it's about as important as life itself!

I am told by many I am kind of traditional in this aspect,,although I tend to view it as respect....

[Bao]

The teacher felt that you had skills and decided to show respect. By doing so, he was not only being courteous to a fellow Taiji practitioner, but also avoided the the potential embarrassment of looking bad in front of his students had he chosen to really "go at it" with you surrounded by their watchful eyes.

You make it sound like there was something bad about this or that the teacher acted cowardly. If two fellow practitioners can feel and understand the other person's skill, why not just leave it at this? Why should anyone need to prove anything? What would be the point?

Sorry for your loss Windwalker

Since you've already brought up Wei Shuren and acknowledged that he is skilled, don't you think that he could have issued a burst of short jin and knocked Men Huifeng back --or even on his arse -- if he'd wanted to?

Sure he might have held back. But why do you think that Men would be knocked down on his arse? We are speaking about skills and counter skills, and also about the preparedness to meet and counter a certain skill set. It's not like their practice and experienced would suddenly escape them if they suddenly get "attacked" by a "burst of jin". When you are in this kind of situation, you always anticipate getting pushed or thrown, so you always adjust your body and posture to not give the opponent any kind of chance. I doubt that no one of these fellows could be tricked or handled like the average Joe.

[windwalker]

Sorry for your loss Windwalker

Thank you he was a good man, and skilled taiji teacher.
It would be 10yrs or so before we would meet again in Hsinchu
He invited me work with some of his advanced students
helping them in their understanding of taiji.

Form one of his students who I worked with

" I felt so lucky to have the chance
listening to you open-heartedly sharing your Taichi experience. As a chinese, I
used to think Taichi is very oriental. Without some backgrounds in Buddhism and
ancient Chinese bibles like I-Ching, it is almost impossible to enter the hall
of Taichi, let alone grasping its inner meaning. I was so surprised to see a
westerner having much deeper understandings in ancient chinese philosophy than
me. Things you shared with us are in the same paradigm as what Teacher Chen
taught us, but the way you interpreted gives me a new prospect. "

[dspyrido]

At what point does showing face stop and people get on with learning & exchanging ideas? I undertand an instructor-student relationship bares more consideration but in a real competitive situation it is irrelevant.

It seems to me the acceptance of embarrassment of getting bested is one of the best ways to reflect and learn. It sharpens the mind and refocuses training to fill in the gap. The longer people delay this the longer the problem resides. Plus it is better to compete & really test in a safe environment than to find out by having ones arse handed to them through a severe beating.