Interview with Adam Mizner

[RobP3]

In the end, it is about what works. If just withdrawing your arm and poking someone in the solar plexus does the job, great. But don't tell me its something it isn't, particularly if anyone off the street can be taught - without all the qi/yi parlance - to do the same thing in a few minutes.

If anyone off the street can be taught - without all the qi/yi parlance, in a few minutes - then where does that leave the people who feel it needs all the qi/yi parlance in order to make it work? Or does it need all the qi/yi parlance ofr it to be a "proper" hit?
cheers

[GrahamB]

Damnit, you guys made me go and watch that zero-inch punch (or whatever he calls it).

I would beg to differ - there is something going on... but you are correct, it's not physical, it's mental. There's a constant stage magician patter he's talking about as he does all this. It's highly theatrical. The whole thing is a performance - he's doing it to camera, after all.

He gives subtle clues through body movements of what he's going to do and how the follower should react - little indications of direction and force. And there's constant verbal coaching "are you ready?" "solid, straight through", etc.... the little point of the finger at the end is a nice finishing touch for the camera.

Like so many other teachers, I'm not even sure he's doing this consciously, he's just doing what his teacher did to him, and what works on the followers, so the wheel keeps turning and there will always be teachers and followers, and there will always be people talking about it (like we are) that keeps the wheel turning.

It's all a performance, and on that basis, it's pretty good. But as Game of Thrones' biggest bad ass once said:

Tyrion Lannister: It's a beautiful dream, stopping the wheel. You're not the first person who's ever dreamt it.

Daenerys Targaryen: I'm not going to stop the wheel, I'm going to break the wheel.

I've blogged about this before: The Tai Chi magician. https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/20 ... -magician/

[Bao]

I think of Occam's razor: he really is just withdrawing his arm.

In the end, it is about what works. If just withdrawing your arm and poking someone in the solar plexus does the job, great. But don't tell me its something it isn't, particularly if anyone off the street can be taught - without all the qi/yi parlance - to do the same thing in a few minutes.

If there's a certain support from stance and postural alignment involved, it might still not be so simple as it seems.

But maybe it is? Maybe there's nothing else. Maybe it's very, very simple. Sure technique can be taught in five minutes. But doing things simple and with precision might take a whole lot of practice.

Common people thinks that artists like Picasso or Miro looks so simple. Anyone should be able to copy what they do. Yet nobody can. IMHO, the easier and simple something looks like, especially in arts of body movement like dance or martial arts, the more practice, skill and dedication lies behind the expression of simplicity. I am not saying that the man in the vid must be a skilled artist, and obviously not that magic lies behind it. But regardless of how someone talks, there's still something nice when people can express things with very little means.

If anyone off the street can be taught - without all the qi/yi parlance, in a few minutes - then where does that leave the people who feel it needs all the qi/yi parlance in order to make it work? Or does it need all the qi/yi parlance ofr it to be a "proper" hit?

When you do something simple to perfection, you won't feel anything yourself. It feels like nothing. So you need something to explain why you could do nothing and get such good results. There must be something in there, right?

[charles]

Common people thinks that artists like Picasso or Miro looks so simple. Anyone should be able to copy what they do. Yet nobody can.

In the 1980's I attended a Picasso show at the Beaux Art Museum in Montreal. There were many of his works on display and it was a major show. Downstairs, there was a childrens' area. In that area, children were taught the basic concepts of cubism and given paper and paints to "play" with. Many of the works made by children captured very well what Picasso did: some could have even passed for Picassos.

When I was a music student, I wrote 4-part exercises that sounded just like Bach. They were technical exercises, not necessarily "inspired" works.

The catch is that copying the past Masters in art - and literature - can be done by many modern students: doing so is often part of their training, just as it was of Picasso's training. What made them great was that they were the first to do it: they were innovators.

But, that doesn't have much to do with the topic on hand.

IMHO, the easier and simple something looks like, especially in arts of body movement like dance or martial arts, the more practice, skill and dedication lies behind the expression of simplicity. I am not saying that the man in the vid must be a skilled artist, and obviously not that magic lies behind it. But regardless of how someone talks, there's still something nice when people can express things with very little means.

Certainly true. It is then up to the observer to determine for him or her self if what is being done is truely that simple or the result of years of dedicated practice to make it look that simple. Sometimes, things are as simple as they look. Sometimes not.

Have someone you know, who is not familiar with martial arts, stand however they wish and give you a concerted poke with their fist into your solar plexus. Chances are, you won't much like having that done, and its probably pretty effective as-is, without years of training and mysterious concepts and language.

[willie]

interesting posts.
49.00 per month? people are complaining? now i'm jealous.
no really excellent post by you guys!

Cloudz said it right.
There are several method's.
One is sinking externally.
But this sinking of qi should already be there before the movement is made. In that case you should still see Whole body movement.
When external sinking is used, "Internal qi is already sunk" The process of external sinking coupled together with the expanding movement
such as his 1 inch punch, will create the situation dynamic of tai chi ying/yang in the motion. I wouldn't call it fajin, it is good body
mechanics and integration. However in that video there was no lower body movement? which means that the proper dynamic isn't really there.
Sure, it's a punch, not fajin, there is no potential energy stored.

[willie]

I watched very carefully his body, legs and hips and I literally saw nothing, not even sinking. Adam Mizner talks about the use of the intent and chi as being the cornerstone and or foundation of his method, which can be problematic. If his body movement was a half inch or inch or two here and there would the power be enhanced or diminished ? Would it show an absence of intent and non movement (in space) generated kinetic energy ("chi") ?

So I'm unsure what the complete absence of any visible body mechanic clues really means on the face of it.

Thank you for a well-reasoned discussion.

The "complete absence of any visible body mechanic clues" means whatever individuals choose for it to mean: it can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I interpret it as follows, based upon my experience.

Although "yi" and "qi" are the backbone of any practitioner's discussion of Taijiquan, with the people I've met there has always been some physical mechanics associated with the practical application of it. So, when I see someone who has no - not just small but no - visible physical action

Charles, if you remember, when i talked about qi or yi you gave me all kinds of crap about it?

[willie]

That's utter bullshit.

itto's no reply proves that he was just talking without no justification to what he was saying.

[Bao]

Have someone you know, who is not familiar with martial arts, stand however they wish and give you a concerted poke with their fist into your solar plexus. Chances are, you won't much like having that done, and its probably pretty effective as-is, without years of training and mysterious concepts and language.

I understand that it won't take any effort if you poke someone isn't the solar plexus with a fist. There are for sure better ways to demonstrate this kind of method. However, I liked the vid and the simplicity of it.

[origami_itto]

That's utter bullshit.

itto's no reply proves that he was just talking without no justification to what he was saying.

Or that a married man with a full time job, an 18 month old daughter, and another one due on Wednesday might have more important things to do than wank rhapsodic about the evolution of Chen boxing into taijiquan with the Aspbergers kid.

What was the question, again?

1. Did Yang Lu Chan teach Chen style without martial content to the imperial gaurd/family?

No, of course not, that is patently absurd. Yang Ban Hou was just as well regarded as a fighter, as was Shou Hou. Ylcs three students were very well known for their skill. There is no reason to suspect that he taught anything but highly effective fighting to them. The consequences of him teaching anything but the genuine ass-kicking article would be losing his job at the least or losing his life at the worst. I know it makes for good nationalist historic revisionist sales patter, but don't believe the hype.

What makes this idea even more stupid is that neither the prince nor his gaurds took students, so no matter what he taught the foreigners, that branch of his teaching has no representation in current times, only what came through his children, who by all reckoning were full blooded Chinese.

If there were any blame to be placed for neutering Yang Taijiquan it would be somewhere in the Yang Chien Hou, Cheng Fu, Cheng Man Ching.

However, I don't believe the teeth have been removed, the art has simply been refined and most people who are drawn to it are less interested in combat.

But it's still there.

As to what makes it superior, in my opinion it is more sophisticated. Chen guys are powerful, no question. Strong, hard, rooted, nothing to fuck with. A good Yang guy will make you start to question the nature of your reality and whether free will as a meaningful concept can exist in a universe where something like that can happen to you.

[DuncanBP]

Or that a married man with a full time job, an 18 month old daughter, and another one due on Wednesday...

Congrats on the new arrival. Try to get some sleep, while you can.

[RobP3]

When you do something simple to perfection, you won't feel anything yourself. It feels like nothing. So you need something to explain why you could do nothing and get such good results. There must be something in there, right?

Yep - but better to use something that explains how you actually did it rather than using something that doesn't explain anything. If you got to that stage you presumably followed some procedure or underwent some process. So there should be a path to follow, not just abstract terminology. That seems to be more for people who want to do "amazing" tricks and keep the secret to themselves

[Bao]

Or that a married man with a full time job, an 18 month old daughter, and another one due on Wednesday...

Congrats on the new arrival. Try to get some sleep, while you can.

Congratulations from me as well. Cherish every moment you can spend together with your daughter.

If there were any blame to be placed for neutering Yang Taijiquan it would be somewhere in the Yang Chien Hou, Cheng Fu, Cheng Man Ching.

CMC taught self defense. Li Yaxuan, YCF's best student taught, and wrote many practical advice for, fighting.

I would blame the gov for watering down CMA and promoting Tai Chi as a health exercise and trying to control teachers about what they teach and how.

[Bao]

When you do something simple to perfection, you won't feel anything yourself. It feels like nothing. So you need something to explain why you could do nothing and get such good results. There must be something in there, right?

Yep - but better to use something that explains how you actually did it rather than using something that doesn't explain anything. If you got to that stage you presumably followed some procedure or underwent some process. So there should be a path to follow, not just abstract terminology. That seems to be more for people who want to do "amazing" tricks and keep the secret to themselves

The problem imho is that "relax" and "feel soft" when you throw a punch is a too simplistic approach for the complicated mind of common people. Use "Qi" will be perceived as more logical and less abstract than "get rid of tension and do as little as possible". If you want people to listen and learn you need to dress up your words and make them pretty. Otherwise you'll only attract the serious people who wants to learn the art for what it is. And that's not enough people to earn a living on...

[Giles]

Or that a married man with a full time job, an 18 month old daughter, and another one due on Wednesday...

Congratulations also from me. Many was the night that I follow-stepped and cloud-handed up and down the hallway with my semi-sleepless daughter.
Good training but can I please, please go back to bed now...?



Not me, but a stock image. And now back to the thread topic...

[RobP3]

The problem imho is that "relax" and "feel soft" when you throw a punch is a too simplistic approach for the complicated mind of common people. Use "Qi" will be perceived as more logical and less abstract than "get rid of tension and do as little as possible". If you want people to listen and learn you need to dress up your words and make them pretty. Otherwise you'll only attract the serious people who wants to learn the art for what it is. And that's not enough people to earn a living on...

Lol true....jargon sells. Doesn't have to be "obscure" terms either...people talk about "weaponising their architecture" and similar.
So you can bring out a DVD series on "How To Use a Spade"..... but imagine a 10 volume set on "Deployment of a Manual Geomorphological Modification Implement"