Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

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Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby yeniseri on Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:01 am

I just love the basic concept of we all possess the same range of movements regardless of style! It is how we train that is the crux of 'something' that is valid or not
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby Bill on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:21 pm

Nice.

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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby nicklinjm on Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:54 pm

Great stuff, shows that the throwing methods (shuai fa) are still there in Okinawan karate if you look hard enough. Have 2 friends that do other styles (Shotokan / Wado-ryu), who had no idea about any of these throwing methods, I feel like this throwing material is not widely taught in the Western branches of these sub-styles.
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby wiesiek on Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:15 am

yup,
when I trained karate/tkd it was considered as mostly punching/kicking styles + some sweeps. Throwing was very "advanced" there, u may consider it as secret tech., :o - judo and classical grappling was main shuai styles.

btw, -very nice compilation/comparison on the vid. thank you
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:29 am

Back when i did Shotokan karate our club was visited by a in Sweden/Europe well known Okinawan Goju-ryu karate instructor to hold a one day seminar to the advanced class. The seminar was all throws and joint locks stuff, we who were all punches and kicks had a quite difficult time to follow but it was very ineresting and at least for me an eye opener. Later when i was in Okinawa i ended up training in a Goju-ryu dojo, one of the exercises we often did was Goju-ryu's variant of push hands called Kakie, in which it depends on the level of the practitioners goes from just pushing,to joint locks/striking and throws. In traditional Karate i'm quite sure this kind of execise is just to be found within Okinawan Goju-ryu and possibly Uechi-ryu Karate.
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby Ashura on Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:38 am

This is not Okinawan Karate, rather mainland Karate but Kuramoto Nariharu shihan is worth mentioning.






Kuramoto Shihan is not well known but is extremely respected within the Jissen Karate world. Kuramoto´s main job is masseur. He has specilazed in massaging Sumotoris thanks to the exceptionnal strength that he has developped all over the years. In 1987, Kuramoto did a first public demonstration which astonished the Karate world in Japan (first video) but remained mostly underground before finally opening his Dojo to a wider public around 2000.

Kuramoto emphasizes a total Karate which includes obviously powerful strikes, as does Kyokushin, but also powerful and crippling locks and throws intended mostly for self defense. It is interesting to note that the techniques shown in the videos have a lot in commun with classical Jujutsu and much less with Judo.
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:02 am

Don't mean to be a naysayer, but I feel that most of the throws demonstrated in the first clip are just techniques borrowed from other grappling systems which have been slightly altered to resemble movements found in a Karate kata.

Anyone with a background in grappling can pretty much turn any movement found in striking arts into throws and takedowns, but that doesn't necessarily mean those techniques were originally part of those systems.
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby shawnsegler on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:04 am

The fact of the matter is that anything good is likely to look like something good from every other system it's in because...the human body is the part of the equation that doesn't change and the physics involved in combative-ly dismantling it are always the same and most of the best ways to affect it fall within a narrow band of what they do and how they look.

FWIW.

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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby shawnsegler on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:08 am

Kuramoto Shihan is not well known but is extremely respected within the Jissen Karate world. Kuramoto´s main job is masseur. He has specilazed in massaging Sumotoris thanks to the exceptionnal strength that he has developped all over the years.


I was just reading a collected book of articles from the Journal Of Asian Martial Arts having to do with Bagua and Hsing-i, and in one of them on Hung I Hsiang it talks of him using his skills from Bone setting and massage to great effect in his listening skills and his ability manipulate and tear flesh by dragging the skin and getting in and using the fasciae to increase the efficacy of his techniques. Obv, of course...but very cool.

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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:04 pm

shawnsegler wrote:The fact of the matter is that anything good is likely to look like something good from every other system it's in because...the human body is the part of the equation that doesn't change and the physics involved in combative-ly dismantling it are always the same and most of the best ways to affect it fall within a narrow band of what they do and how they look.

FWIW.

S


True, but techniques that look similar on the outside usually still have subtle differences such as body use, set-up, and power generation -- things that set one style apart from others (e.g., a Judo shoulder throw vs. a Shuai Jiao shoulder throw). Personally, I'm far more interested in discerning the subtlties that underlie each fighting style than taking a cursory glance at a move and jump to the conclusion that it is the same as something that's also found in other styles.


Honesty is also an issue. Borrowing techniques from other styles and adding them to your arsenal is perfectly acceptable, but to claim that those borrowed techniques have always existed in the style you practice isn't. IMO, it's taintamount to piracy and plagiarism.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby dspyrido on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:35 pm

C.J.W. wrote:True, but techniques that look similar on the outside usually still have subtle differences such as body use, set-up, and power generation -- things that set one style apart from others (e.g., a Judo shoulder throw vs. a Shuai Jiao shoulder throw). Personally, I'm far more interested in discerning the subtlties that underlie each fighting style than taking a cursory glance at a move and jump to the conclusion that it is the same as something that's also found in other styles.


Many moons ago when I did goju ryu I saw the head of the school (4th dan) spar with the top competition black belt. The top student made mince meat of all of us using a very kickboxing approach to fighting. When the older man stepped up he moved using sanchin and I thought he was going to get killed. As a teen I was amazed how he would block step in crowd, sweep and throw. Both did goju but the older gent had something different.

Years later after I had left someone explained it to me. The forms where not slow striking moves but grappling throws & joint locks. The training path was learn the forms, learn striking and the basic sweeps and controls. Later learn full throws and even ground work but this was kept to higher belts.

I cant say I saw the exact parallels to what is shown in the video but the judo like foot sweeps where in the forms as well as many shoulder and hip throws. The dynamics where pretty much fluid and softer type of throws much like I saw as a teen. Perhaps this was why they were taught later.

Personally I think karate would have been awesome if these where included earlier vs yet another form to build the body or to demonstrate to a crowd.
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby Ashura on Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:18 pm

shawnsegler wrote:I was just reading a collected book of articles from the Journal Of Asian Martial Arts having to do with Bagua and Hsing-i, and in one of them on Hung I Hsiang it talks of him using his skills from Bone setting and massage to great effect in his listening skills and his ability manipulate and tear flesh by dragging the skin and getting in and using the fasciae to increase the efficacy of his techniques. Obv, of course...but very cool.

S


Yes, Kuramoto seems to have a very deep knowledge of the human anatomy and also seems to know where and how to hit and/or "tear off" the weak points of the body, those generally hard to strenghten. It looks like he goes through a very intensive daily work like thousands of punches and kicks on home made makiwaras.

Getting back to the Okinawan issue, I found an interesting account by the great Motobu Choki about an not so friendly encounter he had with Funakoshi Gichin, the "father" of Japanese Karate.


When I came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan who was teaching karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn´t even heard his name. Upon the guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up the position of kake-kumite (a kind of okinawan push hands) and said, "what will you do?" He was hesitant, and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him kote-gaeshi (outer wrist twisting throw well known among practionner of JMA) at which he fell to the ground with a thud. He got up, his face red, and said "once more" so we took up the position of kake-kumite again. And again, I threw him with kote gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time:


This account of Motobu Choki throwing Funakoshi is very interesting since it shows that joint locks and throws were originally part of the Okinawan Karate curriculum. It is worth mentioning that Motobu was probably one of the very first Karateka to cross train and fight against other martial arts or combat sport. He has fought against judokas, boxers and wrestlers both on Okinawa and on mainland Japan.

Funakoshi has written some books on Karate which shows some throwing and joint locking techniques as well even though his Karate was very different from Motobu´s.

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I have never studied Shotokan Karate but those techniques are very rarely taught nowdays and then to disappear from the modern curriculum of this specific branch of Karate.
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby Trick on Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:37 am

Yes the above story about Motobu and the "other" Okinawan i read about before too, but i do not recall reading about a challenge "fight". I read something that Motobu had met a fellow Okinawan who was a beginner at Karate and at daytime learned from an other Karate teacher elsewhere in Tokyo and at nights acted as a teacher in his own area, and this irritaded Motobu who felt this way of promotion of Karate on the mainland would do no good for the art there. Anyway whatever the story is Funakoshi's name is never mentioned so one can only speculate, but it is known that there were some tension between the two of them. About throws and join manipulation in karate, in one of his books Funakoshi mentions about Tegumi(Okinawan wrestling) as a popular activity among young males in Okinawa. Probably an activity most Okinawan Karatekas in the past had participated in and included some of it's techniques. Motobu was of nobility, and his older brother was apointed as martial arts instructor for the royal guard (or something like that) and in such position martial techniques from elsewhere(China, mainland Japan for examples) was probably noticed. The empty hand martial art of the Motobu family was/is very similar to JuJutsu/AikiJutsu, hence here Choki Motobu's mastery of the Kote-gaeshi ;) About Shotokan, altought it's kata(forms) has evolved to become very stylished, techniques such as throws and joint locks can still clearly be seen in them, but as mentioned these techniques are rarely or never practiced in sparring or as forms applications. When Karate was introduced to the mainland it quickly became sport oriented, it took the same road Judo had done but had to distingue it self so they threw away the throws to focus mainly on striking.
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Re: Okinawan Karate; Grappling element (shuai-throwing

Postby Ashura on Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:20 pm

Actually, the origin of the tension between Motobu and Funakoshi is to be found in Kyoto in 1921. At that time, Motobu was 51 years old and has fought and defeated an European boxer, nationality unknown, some say Russian, Pole or Estonian. At any rate, the guy was way bigger than Motobu but was nevertheless defeated via KO, probably thanks to a punch to the face between the mouth and the nose.

The magazine King (pronouced Kingu in japanese) wrote a couple of years later an article about this very fight and put a picture of Funakoshi instead of a picture of Motobu. Picture under.

Image

This, of course, infuriated Motobu who felt that Funakoshi took the merit for something which he did not do and, according to Motobu could not have done. Hence the reason for Motobu´s visit to Funakoshi and the following "fight/challenge".

The empty hand martial art of the Motobu family was known as Motobu Udun Dii and was a family art transmitted among the Motobu Family but only to the first born son. It is Motobu Choyu and only he who inherited the system from his father as the tradition wanted, this is to say, from father to first born son. Motobu Choki was the third son and was probably not schooled in the family art. Picture of Motobu Choyu under.

Image

In any case, Motobu Choki was famous for picking up fights and even though it is very unlikely that his older brother would have taught him anything, the possibility cannot be totally ruled out. As a matter of fact, though the Motobu Udun Dii, while still practiced, does not belong anymore to the Motobu family but was passed to Uehara Seikichi Sensei who passed away at the beginning of this century at the beautiful age of 100.
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