Push Hands Fluidity to Locks

[Steve Rowe]

Just an impromptu bit that was filmed from a lesson last night.

[Ashura]

Very nice clip.

Thank you for posting it.

[northern_mantis]

I really like that definition of push hands as an extension of the point of contact with an opponent. Great movement from both of you and no rolling around on the floor screaming from your partner, really classy thanks for sharing.

[Interloper]

Thank you, Steve Rowe, for sharing. The fluidity is beautiful to watch, and reminds me of the way high-level I Liq Chuan practitioners look when working off a spin (the ILC equivalent to "push hands" as a training practice and drill).

I also see an expression of the same principles and concepts in a system of Japanese aikijujutsu -- Hontai Hakkei Ryu -- an internal art that is weapons-based (which is reflected in the vectors of the attacks and receptions that you will see in this video, which focuses specifically on receptions and transitions to finger locks). Same internal mechanics, different artistic expression.

[GrahamB]

Very nice Steve - more of this sort of stuff please!

[wayne hansen]

Well done Steve a lot better than your poetry
The Japanese stuff is stiff and prearranged in comparison

[Interloper]

Well done Steve a lot better than your poetry
The Japanese stuff is stiff and prearranged in comparison

As far as the japanese aikijujutsu video I posted goes, the movement is fluid. To the untrained eye it may look less flowing, because it's based on sword work. The movements are actually very small, small spirals. Very subtle but seem linear to the eye.

I train in both ...CIMA and JIMA..and can say that both are fluid. The fluidity may not be evident on the outside, to the eye, but it is very much there, on the inside.

[Steve Rowe]

Well done Steve a lot better than your poetry

Lol... but if it's in there it has to come out.

The Japanese stuff is stiff and prearranged in comparison

Some of it is, I trained in Wado Karate and Muso Shinden and Jikiden Eishen Ryu Iaido and Jodo so I was lucky in that it really flowed well.

The basis of the push hands there could be the 4 basic blocks of Karate and the locks of Aikido as well as Tai Chi techniques.

[Bao]

Thank you, Steve Rowe, for sharing. The fluidity is beautiful to watch, and reminds me of the way high-level I Liq Chuan practitioners look when working off a spin (the ILC equivalent to "push hands" as a training practice and drill).

I also see an expression of the same principles and concepts in a system of Japanese aikijujutsu -- Hontai Hakkei Ryu -- an internal art that is weapons-based (which is reflected in the vectors of the attacks and receptions that you will see in this video, which focuses specifically on receptions and transitions to finger locks). Same internal mechanics, different artistic expression.

I have absolutely no idea what this clip have more in common with Steve's vid compared to hundreds of other joint lock clips. It's very, very different. Seated (why these aikijutsu insist on sitting down like this is an enigma btw, completely artificial way of practicing.) no fluidity, another context etc.

Steve, thanks. I enjoyed the clip. It reminds me of Liu Chengde who was very fond of qinna in push hands play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryhbmLcMWk8

[Interloper]

Thank you, Steve Rowe, for sharing. The fluidity is beautiful to watch, and reminds me of the way high-level I Liq Chuan practitioners look when working off a spin (the ILC equivalent to "push hands" as a training practice and drill).

I also see an expression of the same principles and concepts in a system of Japanese aikijujutsu -- Hontai Hakkei Ryu -- an internal art that is weapons-based (which is reflected in the vectors of the attacks and receptions that you will see in this video, which focuses specifically on receptions and transitions to finger locks). Same internal mechanics, different artistic expression.

I have absolutely no idea what this clip have more in common with Steve's vid compared to hundreds of other joint lock clips. It's very, very different. Seated (why these aikijutsu insist on sitting down like this is an enigma btw, completely artificial way of practicing.) no fluidity, another context etc.

Steve, thanks. I enjoyed the clip. It reminds me of Liu Chengde who was very fond of qinna in push hands play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryhbmLcMWk8

Bao,
It has the same body method at work. Different art, different application, same internal principles at play. Someone with experience in an internal art can see the 6-directional energy, the sticking and suctioning/drawing, the opening and closing, the spirals.

In the internal arts, there are the body method (which creates internal structure, power and connectivity), the techniques ("waza"... to which the internal power and movement are applied to drive them), and the fighting method. Each requires a different set of training practices to develop and inculcate, and when all are combined, you have your three-dimensional art. However, if someone does not train the first (the body method), it is difficult - if not impossible - to see a connection and relationship between what two very different internal arts are doing.

And, by the way, Liu Chengde lived in Japan for ten years, and worked with Aikijujutsu students -- Yukiyoshi Sagawa's (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu) students, in fact -- and taught them the skills their own art possesses, but that their own teacher was not teaching them. Again, same internal methods, same principles. Slightly different usage.

[wayne hansen]

To the untrained eye many things seem the same but some see deeper
Stevens stuff is all done on the run with no setup
The other is arranged static ,I see the small spirals but they are done against a straight man setting up the gag

[Interloper]

To the untrained eye many things seem the same but some see deeper
Stevens stuff is all done on the run with no setup
The other is arranged static ,I see the small spirals but they are done against a straight man setting up the gag

You're missing the point. Steve is doing "free style" while the second video is a training drill. That's -not- the point. The point is that the underlying body method is the same.

[Ashura]

I have absolutely no idea what this clip have more in common with Steve's vid compared to hundreds of other joint lock clips. It's very, very different. Seated (why these aikijutsu insist on sitting down like this is an enigma btw, completely artificial way of practicing.) no fluidity, another context etc.

Techniques performed from a seated position are quite common in classical Ju-jutsu. There is an historical reason for it: During the Edo period, no one was allowed to stand in certain rooms of the castle. So people had to kneel all the time even when moving. This is called Shikko.



Since the Daimyo (lord) and other high ranking samurais were also present in those rooms, finding a way to adress potential threats became an issue. Techniques were then developped for and from that position.

Those techniques are to be found in every Japanese classical martial art and even in some gendai Budo like Aikido and Judo and are a fairly important part of the technical curriculum of those schools (Judo excepted).

Usually, people do not sit the way Mr Salahuddin does in this video. They usually sit either in seiza or in kiza (on tip toes).



Above is the kiza position, under the seiza. This work while very painful at the beginning turns out to be very important, even fundamental, in terms of structure, movements and inner balance as you progress in your training and is particularly well suited for internal work.

As for this exercice being a completly artificial way of practicing, this is partly true but the same can be said of any training exercice. Perhaps, we should define what is a natural way of practicing and we would quickly find out that there are no 100% natural way of practicing be it in a dojo, Kwoon, gym or whatever.

Let´s get back to Steve´s beautiful video.

[RobP3]

Nice work Steve - for me this is a much more productive method of push hands than the shoving around or bouncing stuff

[GrahamB]

Be nice not to involve the aiki nonsense in a threads here for once.