Push Hands Fluidity to Locks

[Giles]

Very nice indeed. And good teaching from you for the young lady as well, letting her experience the flow, clarity and incisiveness of the techniques without causing her any significant pain, so she can stay relaxed as well and absorb more information.
As a marginal note (and it really is marginal) she could improve her own situation in the training format by relaxing her wrists a little more. You seem to have the "fair lady's hand" most of the time, while she tends to tighten and 'lock' her own wrist at a sharp angle, especially when attacking. That makes it even easier for you to put on the lock and harder for her to neutralise or counter. But that aside, it's nice to see her tuishou in action too - good work!!

[Interloper]

Be nice not to involve the aiki nonsense in a threads here for once.

Graham, the "aiki nonsense" is the same thing Steve is doing, internally, which is why I commented on it in the first place. I can do what Steve is doing and I can do what Salahuddin Muhammad is doing -- at my own level, of course -- because they are just slightly different expressions of the same internal mechanisms.

Okay, back to Steve's lovely video, which it is.

[Bao]

Someone with experience in an internal art can see the 6-directional energy, the sticking and suctioning/drawing, the opening and closing, the spirals.

The aikijutsu clip show technique with a most compliant and very well directed student. When there's this level of cooperation, one must feel the teacher first hand to really under how much principle is the driving factor to what you see.

However, if someone does not train the first (the body method), it is difficult - if not impossible - to see a connection and relationship between what two very different internal arts are doing.

Yes, if you have studied IMA the differences between the two clips should be very, very obvious. One is spontaneous, showing free flow, non-rehearsed applications. The other one is a technical demonstration of different techniques, one clip similar to hundreds of other vids.

And, by the way, Liu Chengde lived in Japan for ten years, and worked with Aikijujutsu students -- Yukiyoshi Sagawa's (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu) students,

Thank you for the info. Didn't know that.

The point is that the underlying body method is the same.

I respectfully disagree.
You have no possibility to use the whole body or weight shifting behind a qinna technique when you sit down. The leverage and body use become very, very different. There are some subtle movement, spiraling etc, sure. But still a very different body method.

Techniques performed from a seated position are quite common in classical Ju-jutsu. There is an historical reason for it: During the Edo period, no one was allowed to stand in certain rooms of the castle. So people had to kneel all the time even when moving. This is called Shikko.

Since the Daimyo (lord) and other high ranking samurais were also present in those rooms, finding a way to adress potential threats became an issue. Techniques were then developped for and from that position.

Methods were developed to practice techniques from that position, yes. No intruder or attacker would respect the rules of a castle or temple. Already back then this was a highly artificial way of practicing technique with very little use. That people are concerned with these traditions today is IMHO quite... Ah, never mind.

I can do what Salahuddin Muhammad is doing -- at my own level, of course

Of course you can do it. Again, what that vid show is a purely technical and completely cooperative demonstration. There's nothing advanced here and I am perfectly sure that there is nothing there you could not do as good or better.

[wayne hansen]

My first teacher was a 4 dan black belt before he switched to tang shou Tao
He did not retain any Japanese forms
What he did retain was Japanese class structure
We meditated in seiza because he thought it loosened and strengthened the legs
The thing about doing things from seiza is the isolation of the waist and hips can be a good training device

[Interloper]

Bao,
Steve's partner isn't giving committed attacks, and is compliant. This is just an exercise in listening and applying the internal qualities, to transition to a lock when you "hear" the opportunity. But to know -how- to do the locks and where/how to apply what quality, at what point of contact, is very much technique. He had to learn, condition and train those in order to be able to "freestyle." What Salahuddin Muhammad is doing is more of a conditioning drill for that, and to transition an attack into a lock, but the next phase would be to do the same from "freestyle" grabs and strikes.

And, Salahuddin Muhammad's partner is throwing committed punches (with intent). If you have ever trained hands-on with a person like this, you'll know that it only takes one or two punches to convince you to tone it down and save your limbs. He absorbs and rebounds every strike, and actually hitting someone like him will harm the hitter, but not the hittee. lol. At least with push-hands exercises, you can avoid that.

Someone with experience in an internal art can see the 6-directional energy, the sticking and suctioning/drawing, the opening and closing, the spirals.

The aikijutsu clip show technique with a most compliant and very well directed student. When there's this level of cooperation, one must feel the teacher first hand to really under how much principle is the driving factor to what you see.

However, if someone does not train the first (the body method), it is difficult - if not impossible - to see a connection and relationship between what two very different internal arts are doing.

Yes, if you have studied IMA the differences between the two clips should be very, very obvious. One is spontaneous, showing free flow, non-rehearsed applications. The other one is a technical demonstration of different techniques, one clip similar to hundreds of other vids.

And, by the way, Liu Chengde lived in Japan for ten years, and worked with Aikijujutsu students -- Yukiyoshi Sagawa's (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu) students,

Thank you for the info. Didn't know that.

The point is that the underlying body method is the same.

I respectfully disagree.
You have no possibility to use the whole body or weight shifting behind a qinna technique when you sit down. The leverage and body use become very, very different. There are some subtle movement, spiraling etc, sure. But still a very different body method.

Techniques performed from a seated position are quite common in classical Ju-jutsu. There is an historical reason for it: During the Edo period, no one was allowed to stand in certain rooms of the castle. So people had to kneel all the time even when moving. This is called Shikko.

Since the Daimyo (lord) and other high ranking samurais were also present in those rooms, finding a way to adress potential threats became an issue. Techniques were then developped for and from that position.

Methods were developed to practice techniques from that position, yes. No intruder or attacker would respect the rules of a castle or temple. Already back then this was a highly artificial way of practicing technique with very little use. That people are concerned with these traditions today is IMHO quite... Ah, never mind.

I can do what Salahuddin Muhammad is doing -- at my own level, of course

Of course you can do it. Again, what that vid show is a purely technical and completely cooperative demonstration. There's nothing advanced here and I am perfectly sure that there is nothing there you could not do as good or better.

[everything]

Thanks for sharing. Really enjoyed it and learned from it. Made me want to go do some ph!!

[Bao]

And, Salahuddin Muhammad's partner is throwing committed punches (with intent). If you have ever trained hands-on with a person like this, you'll know that it only takes one or two punches to convince you to tone it down and save your limbs. He absorbs and rebounds every strike, and actually hitting someone like him will harm the hitter, but not the hittee. lol.

So you know him and have practiced with him. Then you know by first hand experience what he can do and cannot do. Interesting...

[RobP3]

Isn't it a shame that when someone puts a good clip up, the thread then becomes about someone else entirely? Why not start your own thread about that other person?

Also, Steve almost always puts up his own work - what he is doing - rather than trawl Youtube for some random clip of other people. There should be more of this - don't talk, show us what you can do. Yes, we know that "hands on" is the only way to get the full story, but if you can't demonstrate yourself what you are talking about, maybe you should not be talking about it?

[Bao]

Isn't it a shame that when someone puts a good clip up, the thread then becomes about someone else entirely? Why not start your own thread about that other person?

Agreed!

There should be more of this - don't talk, show us what you can do. Yes, we know that "hands on" is the only way to get the full story, but if you can't demonstrate yourself what you are talking about, maybe you should not be talking about it?

Then there would be no discussion board. No EF, no RSF.

[RobP3]

Then there would be no discussion board. No EF, no RSF.

I know, then what would those same five people have to argue about

[Interloper]

It wasn't supposed to be an argument, I posted that video because it was of another expression of the same principles, and I thought it would be interesting to compare and just leave it at that. It was meant to just be part of the discussion of internally driven receptions and redirections of force.

But rather than folks just saying, yeah, there's another approach to the same principles, the direction went to "it's totally not the same thing at all." So, there ya go. Hey, I kept trying to steer people back to Steve's video, at least. So, go back there now. It's not too late!

Isn't it a shame that when someone puts a good clip up, the thread then becomes about someone else entirely? Why not start your own thread about that other person?

Also, Steve almost always puts up his own work - what he is doing - rather than trawl Youtube for some random clip of other people. There should be more of this - don't talk, show us what you can do. Yes, we know that "hands on" is the only way to get the full story, but if you can't demonstrate yourself what you are talking about, maybe you should not be talking about it?

[Subitai]

Great video Steve! I especially like the part where you say " you should wait to receive their energy" (Not an exact quote)

That's how I teach Chin Na, heck most good Taiji should follow this model. The phrase I use is "The way into danger is the way out" and vice versa.

When a person gives you the energy and direction, it's easiest to follow it that way.

If a person can just walk up to you, grab you and put a lock on while you're resisting it...then they don't really need any sorta kung fu = they're just the HULK.

If you get a chance to do another impromptu video...could you do it again only with YOU on the receiving end and showing your counters? I know that you said them verbally and quickly in the video but I can't really catch your words in the audio for some reason.

As I said above, there are ways to get out of locks by just following the same direction...this is the most advanced because it usually doesn't require as much effort to follow and sometimes with only one hand. Sometimes a lock can be thwarted by just "letting go of your grip" or just removing a couple of fingers away from the person grabbing. Othertimes, you don't have to do anything other than step directly into a persons center and that alone will screw up a lock attempt.

But often times it's more fair when showing a demo to show that if YOU can use both hands, then the student or the person countering can also use both hands. It's only fair.

[Steve James]

Cool work, Steve It reminds me of Yang Jwing Ming's push hands qinna. I really liked the emphasis on flow from one lock to another. Good stuff.