Chen Village: Chen Taijiquan Training

[RobP3]

The Yang style that developed from Chen laojia has a pace that is relatively even and slow, without stopping, unlike the alternating of fast and slow in Chen style, or the change between storing and issuing. The movements of Yang style are simple and straightforward; its movement of energy is like the slow circular rotations of drawing silk, different from the windings, twists, and turns (chanrao zhuan zhe) of Chen style, where the movement of energy is distinctly spiral, or screw-like.

But that only describes one particular Yang form, the YCF medium frame

Pretty good description of any standard Yang, any frame or version, imho:
"The movements of Yang style are simple and straightforward; its movement of energy is like the slow circular rotations of drawing silk"

Yep, of the standard YCF. But not so much of the small frame / fast forms / "old" forms

[charles]

Although people commonly use the term "spiral" in discussion of movement, a spiral is, strictly speaking, a two dimensional figure, a circular figure of constantly changing radius.

If one adds simultaneous translation along an axis, a spiral becomes a helix. If, for example, you rotate your arm while extending it, that is a helical motion. If you turn your palm over while extending your arm, that is a helical motion. That basic action occurs in many human movements, and is found in both Chen and Yang Taijiquan. If one shifts weight from one leg to the other while changing the direction of the hips, that is a helical motion through the legs. That happens in both Chen and Yang Taijiquan. One leg has a twisting action that is "ni" and the other is "shun". That is one aspect of "silk reeling" and is found in both Chen and Yang and many other arts, though not all label it as such. And so on.

[ThreeFourFive]

Bingo. A bit more articulate than my abstract brain would muster... Thanks again Charles.

[windwalker]

For simple 3-d spirals, a third variable, h (height), is also a continuous, monotonic function of θ. For example, a conic helix may be defined as a spiral on a conic surface, with the distance to the apex an exponential function of θ.
The helix and vortex can be viewed as a kind of three-dimensional spiral.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral

I think most people would be ok using the word sprial and understanding it as such.

A conical or volute spring (including the spring used to hold and make contact with the negative terminals of AA or AAA batteries in remote controls), and the vortex that is created when water is draining in a sink is often described as a spiral, or as a conic helix.

Quite explicitly, b also includes a cylindrical coil spring and a strand of DNA, both of which are quite helical, so that "helix" is a more useful description than "spiral" for each of them; in general, "spiral" is seldom applied if successive "loops" of a curve have the same diameter.[1]

The word helix is used in biology in the study of DNA..but also a spiral can be used in the same context as a helix…Words by shear invention are synonymous with other word which can explain the same indoctrinated mind set within 3D matrix realities of mind..

https://www.quora.com/Geometry-What-is- ... nd-a-helix

in general, "spiral" is seldom applied if successive "loops" of a curve have the same diameter.

[Bao]

In Bagua there is the notion of twist and stretch. In tai chi I would prefer talking about complementary and contradictory forces. It's maybe the same, as also maybe with spiraling and helixes. The point is a practical one, not about names or explanations in physical terms, to support a movement from different directions at the same time for structural support and strength.

[windwalker]

In Bagua there is the notion of twist and stretch. In tai chi I would prefer talking about complementary and contradictory forces. It's maybe the same, as also maybe with spiraling and helixes. The point is a practical one, not about names or explanations in physical terms, to support a movement from different directions at the same time for structural support and strength.

Most of the people I work with either don't speak English as a first language or
only speak Chinese...I just draw what I mean and let them call it as they see it,
then allow them to experience it being used and applied.

Yes the point is "a practical one"

[willie]

Although people commonly use the term "spiral" in discussion of movement, a spiral is, strictly speaking, a two dimensional figure, a circular figure of constantly changing radius.

If one adds simultaneous translation along an axis, a spiral becomes a helix. If, for example, you rotate your arm while extending it, that is a helical motion. If you turn your palm over while extending your arm, that is a helical motion. That basic action occurs in many human movements, and is found in both Chen and Yang Taijiquan. If one shifts weight from one leg to the other while changing the direction of the hips, that is a helical motion through the legs. That happens in both Chen and Yang Taijiquan. One leg has a twisting action that is "ni" and the other is "shun". That is one aspect of "silk reeling" and is found in both Chen and Yang and many other arts, though not all label it as such. And so on.

no, it's not present in yang style. I have never seen the winding and twisting while retracting or extending in application of yang style.
As i had said, "they have lost the spirals and the engine that powers them. period."
i know you enjoy contradicting me. so now i ask for you to prove it.

[willie]

In Bagua there is the notion of twist and stretch. In tai chi I would prefer talking about complementary and contradictory forces. It's maybe the same, as also maybe with spiraling and helixes. The point is a practical one, not about names or explanations in physical terms, to support a movement from different directions at the same time for structural support and strength.

yes bagua has the spirals or helix, i believe they call it the coil.
If you like or watch Sam M. yang style he has the coil, but the coil isn't from yang style, he incorporated it from bagua.

You sound like your copping out, of-coarse we need names and in-depth explanation to the smallest detail.
This is why 99.999 percent never achieve their goals, bad instructors who try to hide the fact that they don't know shit.

[charles]

i know you enjoy contradicting me. so now i ask for you to prove it.

I wasn't aware that I was contradicting you: I simply stated my experience.

You could take nearly any movement from Yang style as "proof". Chosen semi-randomly, here's Yang Jun teaching "Cloud Hands". Lots of examples of "spiral" movement, but take a look at about 13:00 minutes. The turning of the palm in the upper arm should look familiar to you: it is the "positive circle", a basic movement found everywhere in Chen forms and applications. The palm rotates outward as the arm extends: one example of "spiral movement".

Since this thread is about Chen Bing, here's Chen Bing teaching the "positive circle": look at 2:51. You should be able to see the similarity between Yang Jun's action and Chen Bing's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ai7Y9CU_Tw

Cloud Hands is just two "positive circles" 180 degrees "out of phase". In Yang style, the lower half of the circle is typically performed without rotating the palm so that it faces inward, as demonstrated by Yang Jun.

[willie]

i know you enjoy contradicting me. so now i ask for you to prove it.

I wasn't aware that I was contradicting you: I simply stated my experience.

You could take nearly any movement from Yang style as "proof". Chosen semi-randomly, here's Yang Jun teaching "Cloud Hands". Lots of examples of "spiral" movement, but take a look at about 13:00 minutes. The turning of the palm in the upper arm should look familiar to you: it is the "positive circle", a basic movement found everywhere in Chen forms and applications. The palm rotates outward as the arm extends: one example of "spiral movement".

Since this thread is about Chen Bing, here's Chen Bing teaching the "positive circle": look at 2:51. You should be able to see the similarity between Yang Jun's action and Chen Bing's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ai7Y9CU_Tw

Cloud Hands is just two "positive circles" 180 degrees "out of phase". In Yang style, the lower half of the circle is typically performed without rotating the palm so that it faces inward, as demonstrated by Yang Jun.

ha, i knew you were going to use that example, not good enough!

[ThreeFourFive]

It's actually more than good enough.... But if you are expecting a line dropped on the internet to fill in the blanks in your own practice of the basics, then I can understand why you feel that way. It takes "four hands to learn", as in tons of one-on-one time with a teacher. And even then, many just won't get it, no matter how blue in the face the teacher gets trying to explain it.

If you cannot simply SEE what Charles described, in addition to his point that spiral/helical action is found in many mundane human movements, there may be no helping you...

[willie]

It's actually more than good enough.... But if you are expecting a line dropped on the internet to fill in the blanks in your own practice of the basics, then I can understand why you feel that way. It takes "four hands to learn", as in tons of one-on-one time with a teacher. And even then, many just won't get it, no matter how blue in the face the teacher gets trying to explain it.

If you cannot simply SEE what Charles described, in addition to his point that spiral/helical action is found in many mundane human movements, there may be no helping you...

wow another douchebag.
i most certainly don't need your help. lol!
you make me laugh.

[ThreeFourFive]

With that attitude, you probably CAN'T be helped...

It's OK. I used to be like you.

[willie]

With that attitude, you probably CAN'T be helped...

It's OK. I used to be like you.

my attitude? dude your a joke and a blind one at that.
you go back and take a good long look at your first post meant for me,
is that anyway to introduce yourself?
who says that i need any help?
what is your name and who is your teacher?
how about a video too?

[ThreeFourFive]

Introduce? "Dude", I've been here in one form or another since 2001. Formerly "QuaiJohnCain"....

Your very statements and questions regarding what you address here outlines where you "are at" to many of us. It is clear that you DO need help. And you are clearly interacting here in an attempt to get it, despite what you say. The only person making a big deal out of it is you.

My name is John. I've been practicing taijiquan for 21 years, 10 of those spent with a person who's name I will no longer speak in any form due to his behavior. But he's a relatively big name in the IMA world, he trained many kuoshu champions. That should be enough for you to figure it out... I've also spent some years with a CXW disciple, Jim Criscimagna. I'm no expert, but I'm also far from being a beginner.

Is that better? What does it matter anyways? You're already disregarding valid statements being made by others, I can only expect more of the same. And I have a personal rule about casting pearls before certain types...