Chen Village: Chen Taijiquan Training

[willie]

Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang are known to "terrorize" the students with demands of high definition, and one of the fairly simple and basic moves I've just described is something they might have a student repeat sl-l-l-ow-w-wly over a full minute, two minutes! -- and then again, because it's still wrong, the muscle memory didn't sink in -- and again, two minutes of rotating the heel, two minutes of turning the palm...

Not every teacher will teach high definition because, for one thing, it requires absolute mastery from the teacher, and for another, many Western students get very frustrated by this drill. They thought they knew the form perfectly and have been doing it correctly for years! Turns out they didn't know the half of it, and then turns out their muscle memory of doing it wrong is very stubborn and won't go away and won't make room for the new and improved memory of the correct way to do it. And a teacher you can't satisfy turning your palm for two minutes, again and again, becomes a torturer, an ego buster, and people's defenses kick in and they get upset and take it personally and what not.

So, many teachers avoid this kind of drills because they don't want to alienate the students who refuse to be humbled.

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/13698-c ... it/page-13

This is what I had alluded to. I agree very much with the posters thoughts...

I'll tell you what's up.
18 degree's outside, a guy comes by walking his dog, sifu is retraining me outside his home.
the guy says"you guys are still at it? I replied " i dare you to come and try it, you'll break down in tears it's so hard.
forget about wall squat, throw 245lbs for 10 or 12 on there, now were talking.

[charles]

do you feel they understand what being straight means,
and show / use / this understanding in their movements.

I'm not sure that I understand what straight means. In what context, as in vertical? As in having things aligned along a single, straight line? As in "straight from the curved"?

[GrahamB]

What is training in Chen village like?

http://www.chenvillage.com/whats-studyi ... llage-like

[Patrick]

Yeah, not what I would be interested in. It seems like the average San Shou training. No wonder, as you can read above, they train for such competitions.
Not much judgment, rather a statement saying: Not my cup of tea...mhm tea. I should make myself another cup right now.

[windwalker]

do you feel they understand what being straight means,
and show / use / this understanding in their movements.

I'm not sure that I understand what straight means. In what context, as in vertical? As in having things aligned along a single, straight line? As in "straight from the curved"?

As in understanding the inner and outer alignments used to form a vertical axis and the reason for doing so.
Some might refer to it as connecting heaven and earth.

[willie]

What is training in Chen village like?

http://www.chenvillage.com/whats-studyi ... llage-like

looks like heaven to me.

[charles]

As in understanding the inner and outer alignments used to form a vertical axis and the reason for doing so.
Some might refer to it as connecting heaven and earth.

I honestly don't know.

[windwalker]

As in understanding the inner and outer alignments used to form a vertical axis and the reason for doing so.
Some might refer to it as connecting heaven and earth.

I honestly don't know.

cool

not much point in explaining or talking about it.

later,,

luck in your training.

[willie]

As in understanding the inner and outer alignments used to form a vertical axis and the reason for doing so.
Some might refer to it as connecting heaven and earth.

I honestly don't know.

cool

not much point in explaining or talking about it.

later,,

luck in your training.

sounds like whats called "linking-up".
as if the chakra's extended beyond oneself, all the way to the heavens on a silk string.

[amor]

Doesn't seem much different from any other type of training. why call it taiji?

Because it is taiji. The common mis-interpretation of taiji is that "a person must be in touch with the feminine side" in order
to join with the "masculine side" which then creates harmony and a third outcome. This is not a complete understanding, it is dun
of maodun.
A chen stylist is both yin and yang all the time. he doesn't need to rely on max separation. he is not half a man.

Interesting about a chen stylist being both yin and yang all the time, why isn't a yang stylist yin and yang all the time?

Here is an excerpt from fu zongwei's book: what do you think of the following statement?

The Yang style that developed from Chen laojia has a pace that is relatively even and slow, without stopping, unlike the alternating of fast and slow in Chen style, or the change between storing and issuing. The movements of Yang style are simple and straightforward; its movement of energy is like the slow circular rotations of drawing silk, different from the windings, twists, and turns (chanrao zhuan zhe) of Chen style, where the movement of energy is distinctly spiral, or screw-like. As for the movements and breathing being natural and unified, Yang style simply adopts the method of qi chen dantian “sink the qi to the dantian,” whereas the Chen style method unites dantian nei zhuan “turning the dantian within” with qi chen dantian. The moderate and easy practice method of Yang style Taijiquan makes it easily learned by the great masses. This is an important reason for the relatively wider development and spread of Yang style compared to Chen style.

From the quote of fu zonwei it would appear that chen style is, although sounding more difficult to obtain, more advanced than yang style. Does this have anything to do with why you moved up from yang to chen?

[willie]

Doesn't seem much different from any other type of training. why call it taiji?

Because it is taiji. The common mis-interpretation of taiji is that "a person must be in touch with the feminine side" in order
to join with the "masculine side" which then creates harmony and a third outcome. This is not a complete understanding, it is dun
of maodun.
A chen stylist is both yin and yang all the time. he doesn't need to rely on max separation. he is not half a man.

Interesting about a chen stylist being both yin and yang all the time, why isn't a yang stylist yin and yang all the time?

Here is an excerpt from fu zongwei's book: what do you think of the following statement?

The Yang style that developed from Chen laojia has a pace that is relatively even and slow, without stopping, unlike the alternating of fast and slow in Chen style, or the change between storing and issuing. The movements of Yang style are simple and straightforward; its movement of energy is like the slow circular rotations of drawing silk, different from the windings, twists, and turns (chanrao zhuan zhe) of Chen style, where the movement of energy is distinctly spiral, or screw-like. As for the movements and breathing being natural and unified, Yang style simply adopts the method of qi chen dantian “sink the qi to the dantian,” whereas the Chen style method unites dantian nei zhuan “turning the dantian within” with qi chen dantian. The moderate and easy practice method of Yang style Taijiquan makes it easily learned by the great masses. This is an important reason for the relatively wider development and spread of Yang style compared to Chen style.

From the quote of fu zonwei it would appear that chen style is, although sounding more difficult to obtain, more advanced than yang style. Does this have anything to do with why you moved up from yang to chen?

The statement that you quoted is just about the most correct statement that I have seen yet.
The reason why Yang stylist aren't yin and yang all the time is because they have lost the spirals and the engine that powers them.
Those spirals are paramount if a practitioner ever wants to succeed in applications.
The way that chen is commonly seen applied, mostly wrestling, is not anywhere's close to the levels i train.
Not that they possibly don't have those levels, I'm sure many of the older crowd do. But very rarely have i ever seen anything even close.
Thanks

[ThreeFourFive]

The many problems with attempting to discuss these things in writing are definitely arising here. There are many ways to describe a singular characteristic. Things get confused when one group uses a term to define a characteristic, while another group uses the same term to define something entirely different.

Though the language of "separating yin and yang" is more common in Yang style, the intrinsic principle behind it is most certainly applied in Chen. Chen Zhonghua talks about it extensively. I do realize that there are some who see his work as a different animal. But if you pay attention to what he alludes to in his descriptions, it can be seen that the principle is present in the more qualitative lines of Chen movement.

I find the idea that Yang style does not use spirals very strange. I do not practice Yang style but I can see it plain as day within it. Perhaps it is a matter of exposure. Or maybe as I suggested earlier, the physical context of the definitions... That gets a bit too abstract to discuss in writing. Like the flavor of a given food, it is impossible to use descriptions to enable another whom has never tasted it, to taste it.

[willie]

then i will make it very simple for you to understand.

A) if you had a fake metal replica handgun, Even though it doesn't have any internal parts, you could pistil whip someone with it.
b) you have a real one with moving internal parts and fire.

A) A guy uses a punch press to stamp a hole in sheet metal.
B) A guy uses a milling machine to bore a hole through heavy steel.

Both have downward pressure. it's just that one of them has a live center and the other does not.

[RobP3]

[b]The Yang style that developed from Chen laojia has a pace that is relatively even and slow, without stopping, unlike the alternating of fast and slow in Chen style, or the change between storing and issuing. The movements of Yang style are simple and straightforward; its movement of energy is like the slow circular rotations of drawing silk, different from the windings, twists, and turns (chanrao zhuan zhe) of Chen style, where the movement of energy is distinctly spiral, or screw-like.

But that only describes one particular Yang form, the YCF medium frame

[Bao]

The Yang style that developed from Chen laojia has a pace that is relatively even and slow, without stopping, unlike the alternating of fast and slow in Chen style, or the change between storing and issuing. The movements of Yang style are simple and straightforward; its movement of energy is like the slow circular rotations of drawing silk, different from the windings, twists, and turns (chanrao zhuan zhe) of Chen style, where the movement of energy is distinctly spiral, or screw-like.

But that only describes one particular Yang form, the YCF medium frame

Pretty good description of any standard Yang, any frame or version, imho:
"The movements of Yang style are simple and straightforward; its movement of energy is like the slow circular rotations of drawing silk"