Internal Power From Deep Front Line

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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby Patrick on Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:04 am

I-mon wrote:

I like those exercises and my wife digs them even more. Thanks for them.

I understand (very rudimentary) how these exercises relate to fascia. But how exactly do you relate them with IMA? Is a "springy" body in your opinion a prerequisite for IMA skills or can IMA skills be narrowed down to having a spring like quality (counter moves, opposing forces)? In Yi Quan for example it is often talked about being a big spring. Using your stability and weight. You can explode forward in an instant, but also rebound back as fast. If you go forward, you also think about going backward etc.

I can relate to this, but to my limited knowledge , fascia are still secondary to muscles. You can only passively influence them, the work comes still down to muscles. What is your opinion on this?

Last edited by Patrick on Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total. The philosophy and practice of a healthy life
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby I-mon on Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:48 pm

Hey Patrick, thanks.

Those movements are some that I have simplified and exaggerated, using the big movements with big swings helps to get the feeling of the entire body being stretched along a particular line, and the different basic movements using the three planes of motion (sagittal, frontal, transverse) help to develop that feeling of the whole body stretch running through the spine and torso from the feet to the hands, along the front and back of the body, the sides of the body, and spiralling across the body. The feeling of whole-body stretch then helps to develop the feeling of whole-body contraction, as you learn to contract the entire area being stretched as a single unit, or a wave.

The standard IMA method appears to be to use those same feelings, whole body stretches and contractions, alternating back and forth across the body and fluidly changing between the different lines, but generally uses smaller, more subtle and more sophisticated movements, which makes it harder to get the feeling in the beginning, in my experience. The yiquan method uses exactly the same principle, using no visible external movement in zhanzhuang, then tiny movements, then slightly larger movements moving into shili practice and fajin, like we can see in the videos of Han Xingyuan, for example:

Absolutely this is training for the neuromuscular system!

The only difference is that fascia develops more slowly than muscles, (and muscles develop more slowly than nerves or motor patterns), and fascia responds to high volume rather than high intensity, hence doing the same movements at relatively low intensity with lots and lots of reps. Fascia adapts to these kinds of stimulus not just by becoming thicker and stronger, but by becoming better organised, with the fibres aligning themselves along the lines of the forces being applied to them regularly. So, exercises which stretch and contract lines of force spanning the whole body from the feet to the hands, will cause the connective tissue system over time to become thicker and better organised with fibres aligning in more and more coherent lines through the body.

Muscles firing in response to nerve signals are certainly what drive all bodily movements, but muscles move the skeleton by pulling first on their connective tissue sheaths and tendinous attachments, so if the connective tissue sheaths are made up of fibres that have been thickened and organised along clear lines of force stretching throughout the body, then the whole system will provide more coherent whole-body movements with forces being transferred more clearly through the connective tissue.

So it's absolutely not "all about fascia". Clearer motor patterns will make the muscular component better coordinated, recruiting more or less muscle fibres when appropriate, reducing parasitic tension where it's not needed, and also the muscles themselves will adapt to the training, BUT the connective tissues will adapt over time to become thicker and more coherent, and that will improve force transfer, storage and release of kinetic energy through the tendons which reduces muscular effort, and yes increases the feeling of "springiness" in the body.

And no none of this information is necessary, if the training methods are good it'll all happen by itself.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby Bao on Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:29 pm

Excellent post I-mon. 8-)

I-mon wrote:And no none of this information is necessary, if the training methods are good it'll all happen by itself.

Yet, sometimes people need the info to keep up the "faith" in the art to continue practicing.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby Patrick on Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:30 pm

Thank you Simon! This information was really useful and changed my perspective a bit. In the Stretch therapy forum, Craig wrote (along those lines) that although he met a lot of flexible people they were lacking a springy quality that he got from the the Chinese ballistic stretching methods. What do you think about this stretching method? Do you see it in a similar vein as your swinging exercises?
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby middleway on Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:08 am

Great post I Mon. Thank you. :)
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:01 am

Yes indeed, very excellent post
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby robert on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:05 am

I-mon wrote:And no none of this information is necessary, if the training methods are good it'll all happen by itself.

Good post I-mon. I agree with the statement, but even if the training methods are good students still have to get the idea of pre-tensioning or connection or they end up just doing choreography.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby marvin8 on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:09 am

Not sure if this relates to the OP. However, a former RSF post referencing an article by Andrea Falk, Myofascial meridian theory applied in Chinese internal martial arts:

I-mon wrote:I'm not sure which rhetoric you're talking about, but for some basic theory on the training of the fascia (I mostly prefer to use the traditional term "connective tissue"), Robert Schliep is one of the original and leading researchers in the field. In this old paper he mentions the importance of elastic recoil for connective tissue training:

I came across these 2 videos referencing the same article by Robert Schleip, Training principles for fascial connective tissues: scientific foundation and suggested practical applications.

Published on May 8, 2017
This is the most powerful way to throw a punch. The philosophy of the strike moves away from clean boxing, but there are current world champions, and top level athletes who have a heavy emphasis on using this method when delivering their punch; both in boxing and mma. Thank you for joining me as I explain:

Published on May 14, 2017


Music: [Chill] Nomyn - The Journey

Elastic recoil is a method of harnessing the elastic properties in the tendon and fascia of a muscle. Research has been done in regards to the impact the elastic properties of the tendon and fascia have on the overall deliverance of force and I'll leave a few sources bellow referencing this.

The entire premise of using elastic recoil isn't taught too often in the fundamentals of boxing, and for good reason, as cleaner and shorter movements that rely more so on hip and pivot will traditionally beat you to the punch thus use your force against you, but that doesn't mean professional boxers don't use it. Actually one of the greatest boxers of all time, who by many veterans of the discipline regard him as the greatest boxer of all time used this method as an integral philosophy to his striking style. Sugar Ray Robinson. You can see, the way he whipped his arms back up against their elasticity. His core boxing is very unconventional. His understanding of the science and philosophy was definitely at one of the highest levels, but his punching techniques in execution were very unorthodox.

Mike Tyson aswell, he would visbily whip devastating speed into his hooks and uppercuts with elastic recoil. Transitioning from body to head until you were dead, basically. The man was Terrifying indeed.

Ofcourse we covered gennady golovkin in our last video, but to dive a little deeper, his method is to pressuring you into an infight, then with head movement and a huge range of motion, harnessing elastic recoil to devastate through the velocity and explosivness of his hooks.

All of these strikes rely heavily on the elastic properties of the pectoral, but lets look at an example of it being generated else where. The bolo punch. invented by Ceferino Garcia who developed the wide sweeping motion in his youth hacking at vegetation with a machette. Hence bolo, filipino machete. It's been used by roy jones, sugar ray leonard, and was used by conor mcgregor to effectively deal with marcus brimmages very low and forward stance. The premise of this punch is to increase distance over time to increase velocity, but also, it uses elastic recoil in the bicep as it snaps from the sweep around. Definitely a telegraph strike, but its definite power increase is unquestioned.

Overall, this method of generating power should not deter you from understanding the crisp fundamentals of boxing. They exist for a reason, and that reason is, they are very effective, but it's important non the less to note how many great warriors utilized this unorthodox philosophy to devastate their way to the top. This leads us to a powerful conclusion, to know what works for us, but also to figure out what works for you, because magic doesn't happen from the text book. It happens when we take its wisdom and knowledge, and create an exception that adds to it. You exist not to read and regurtitate, but to read and expand, to add to it. That's what we can learn from these great warriors, warriors who took their own unique path and found a gift that led them to the top of their craft.

As a bonus, lets take a look at hendo's H bomb... Oh baby... Why is that so satisfying...
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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