Internal Power From Deep Front Line

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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:51 pm

Patrick wrote:I think the fascia get way to much credit in IMA. :-X


+1 ;)

... But it gives a certain idea about the body is connected physiologically. Understanding might help. Might.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby robert on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:57 am

Hi Steve, I too am interested in the muscle tendon channels. In the beginning of the video you say "the person you think discovered this", this basic idea is documented in a Chinese book called the Ling Shu that is 2000 years old. In the Ling Shu there is a chapter entitled Jing Jin and that basically translates as muscle/tendon channel. The jing jin are groups of muscles and connective tissue that follow the pattern of the regular meridians. I think Tom Myers just repackaged this for westerners.

http://yang-sheng.com/?p=11087

Just an FYI.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby Steve Rowe on Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:57 am

Thanks for that Robert, there is certainly a fair bit of crossover there, I guess we're always only 'rediscovering the wheel'.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:56 am

The thing with the muscle tendon channels is that while the theory is kind of similar they (generally) go from the fingers to the toes on the same sides of the body - that's an important distinction when it comes down to 'what do I actually do'.

They're not exactly the same as "meridians" but in a rough sort of sense the meridian channels map over the top of them (notice there is little 'cross body' going on):

Image

YMMV
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby middleway on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:49 am

Hi Steve, I too am interested in the muscle tendon channels. In the beginning of the video you say "the person you think discovered this", this basic idea is documented in a Chinese book called the Ling Shu that is 2000 years old. In the Ling Shu there is a chapter entitled Jing Jin and that basically translates as muscle/tendon channel. The jing jin are groups of muscles and connective tissue that follow the pattern of the regular meridians. I think Tom Myers just repackaged this for westerners.


You know it is entirely possible that the Meridians are outdated or incomplete and now we simply know more ... especially with regard to how the human body generates force across its two halves.

(notice there is little 'cross body' going on):


Every time you go for a walk or a run you are using the cross body, so i am not sure why we would consider it strange to look into and develop. It maps onto so many martial movements.

The whole topic of Fascia is allergic to some, they seem to call bullshit but don't actually read the papers, the research or the findings. It is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in the main because knowledge of the tissue lines or groups that you use DOES directly map to your ability to improve. You could 'Just train', but again, that idea is shown time and again to be inferior to other (often newer) models.

With all that said, I actually think the anti-fascia crowd are half right. I myself was guilty of believing fascia to be some panacea of internal work. But the truth is much more complex and involves everything from muscle, to bone, to fascia, to the organs, to the nervous tissues and everything in between. You cant just rip out one type of tissue and focus solely on it, every tissue is inter-related. With that said, Fascia is absolutely a tissue used in the body and one that we should include in our own training models if we are being honest about how we as humans move around .. whether in an 'internal' or 'external' way.

Ben Greenfield is a well respected Sports Scientist and personal trainer, his recent podcast on Eldoa is worth a listen for those with minds open enough to explore the ideas of two sports scientists

https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/2017/03/what-is-eldoa/

cheers.
Chris,
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:25 am

Good question.

Every time you go for a walk or a run you are using the cross body, so i am not sure why we would consider it strange to look into and develop. It maps onto so many martial movements.


But are you? Or is one side of the body opening while the other closes what is actually happening? It might seem inconsequential how you label things, but when you're dealing with developing connections that are gossamer thin initially, into something more real and tangible, where you direct your efforts is pretty important. For example, if there are no muscle tendon channels that go 'across' the body (say, from opposite hand to foot), it's pretty difficult to develop them...
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby cloudz on Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:26 am

Does anyone have any knowledge or opinion on the Biotensegrity model, It's been around a while and I think predates all the myofascial movement.
I came across an article recently, a few years old now that talked about it. My understanding is that it includes fascia and more besides. Even down to individual cells.
I might try to get a bit more familiar with it. It used to get mentioned before sometimes, I don't know if its been discredited but you don't here much talk about it anymore.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby Marko on Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:27 am

GrahamB wrote:For example, if there are no muscle tendon channels that go 'across' the body (say, from opposite hand to foot), it's pretty difficult to develop them...


I'm not sure if you talk here about Jing Jin specifically or about human anatomy in general (I doubt it makes any difference anyway), but the following clip (for those not averse to looking at parts of cadavers) shows that a cross body connection clearly exists in the human body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGmK5Zn9Au0
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby middleway on Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:35 am

Hi George,

Yes I researched that a little bit. Many of the Thomas Myers anatomy trains crowd are also fans of Biotensegrity. In fact i think the Myofascial movement sprung, in part, from that model. Also i seem to remember Scott Sonnon mentioning in a couple of his videos at one point.

Cheers.

Graham.

But are you? Or is one side of the body opening while the other closes what is actually happening? It might seem inconsequential how you label things, but when you're dealing with developing connections that are gossamer thin initially, into something more real and tangible, where you direct your efforts is pretty important. For example, if there are no muscle tendon channels that go 'across' the body (say, from opposite hand to foot), it's pretty difficult to develop them...


I agree it is very important. Hence the need to be clear.

For instance are you talking about actual Muscles and Tendons when you say 'Muscle Tendon Channel' or are you talking about the lines depicted in the diagram? tendons attach muscle to bone. Ligaments link bone to bone. Sheets of Fascia often link muscle to muscle as seen in the abdomen or in the Lumbar as well as a multitude of other roles. As i said earlier, it is much more detailed and there are obviously exceptions but that's a good basic idea. So we need to be clear what is meant by 'Muscle Tendon Channel' because those lines don't represent those two tissues very well.

If you are interested, it is worth looking at how the Internal and external obliques and the serratus work in harmony across the body.

But failing that, it is pretty easy to test if there are is a viable connection between the two half's of the body in a X. Simply get someone to push on your right shoulder and hold that push, touch your lower abdomen on your left side and you will feel it engage. The more they push the more you will feel the line from that shoulder running across the abdomen to the opposite hip. Why is your lower left abdomen engaging as a result of an upper right push? Which foot goes light once your structure is compromised? why is it the opposite foot that goes light? What tissues are engaging to hold the push? Which way to they run?... there are lots of details that easily demonstrate that i viable connection exists between the sides of the body.

With that said, I am not married to any idea, if new ideas are better i will adopt them and bin the others. If people are happy with that they do then it really doesn't matter to me at all, and when people are completely convinced of anything to the point where a wall goes up, I tend to just wander back off to keep training and exploring these ideas.

Cheers
Chris
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:48 am

Hey Chris,

I use "Muscle tendon Channel" because it's a translation from the Chinese (as stated above) for their name, but I personally think of them as 'lines of strength', rather than worry what they're made up of (presumably all sorts of bits and bobs). I'm not entirely sure what being pushed on your right shoulder and feeling something in your left hip actually proves, if anything. I'm sure I would also feel something in my right hip, or pretty much anywhere I put my awareness since the whole body is a unit.

When I think of opening one side of the body and closing the other, along the muscle tendon channels then this image comes to mind:

Image
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby middleway on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:10 am

Hey Chris,

I use "Muscle tendon Channel" because it's a translation from the Chinese (as stated above) for their name, but I personally think of them as 'lines of strength', rather than worry what they're made up of (presumably all sorts of bits and bobs). I'm not entirely sure what being pushed on your right shoulder and feeling something in your left hip actually proves, if anything. I'm sure I would also feel something in my right hip, or pretty much anywhere I put my awareness since the whole body is a unit.

When I think of opening one side of the body and closing the other, along the muscle tendon channels then this image comes to mind:


I specifically said feel the tissue on the lower left abdomen though which is involved in resisting the push. Its not just the pressures around the body but the tissue engaging. Anyways, 'Lines of Strength'. Ok, so i guess we would have to define strength and what the line is here too then. But that's too long a discussion and semantics aren't the purpose of this thread.

For clarity i am not advocating that cross body is the ONLY connection that matters, i don't think it is, but I feel it is certainly one of the connections that matter. In fact I teach several ways to use the body, my daito ryu teacher would teach something called 'Hitoemi' or 'single line' movement which was same side focused.

The image you show is interesting, because it is actually same sided. The right arm right leg are extended in this image linearly, the only part turning out is the left leg

Dragon or Heng would be a better example of where cross body is obvious IMO.

Image
Last edited by middleway on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:31 am

Yes, that's why I posted it - it's a stretch on the same side of the body, rather than a cross body stretch - one side open, one side closed.

Sure - you can also stretch across the body from opposite sides - but I see that as stretch being created (in IMA terms) by one side opening and one side closing simultaneously - the root of the stretch would be in the lines of force along the same side of the body. e.g.:

Image

I think the theory is that the muscle tendon channels were the original basis of all these arts - healing, dance, yoga, martial art - and the 'way of moving' using the dantien as the central point from which to manipulate them. Mainly these days we have left over bits and pieces that point to the ancient origins.

The practice seems to support the theory. Although I have no real interest in convincing anybody of anything. I just do my research, I practice and get on with it ;D
Last edited by GrahamB on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby middleway on Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:54 am

I think the theory is that the muscle tendon channels were the original basis of all these arts - healing, dance, yoga, martial art - and the 'way of moving' using the dantien as the central point from which to manipulate them. Mainly these days we have left over bits and pieces that point to the ancient origins.


I think this just speaks to how things 'move on' as new evidence is presented. Its not that all things get binned, but new information is added and older ideas are challenged. Such is progress.

Yes, that's why I posted it - it's a stretch on the same side of the body, rather than a cross body stretch - one side open, one side closed.


But i don't know how that is relevant the the cross body concept. All you have shown is the same side work, which is also a 'thing'. As I say, there is no reason this has to be an 'either or'.

The channels your post just don't match with our anatomy very well in terms of tissues, and when it comes to lines of strength, our tissues are all we have. Sure some parts do, but other parts don't, hence my view that they are somewhat outdated.

happy training.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:06 am

I think those crazy old Chinese dudes might have been on to something... ;D Happy training to you too!

(btw, my picture wasn't related to anything you were talking about - it wasn't 'cross body' - it was relating to what I was talking about.)
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:16 am

b.t.w. "lines of strength" - let me clarify a bit:

There are always two primary forces acting on us at all times - the ground - pushing us up with its stability and then gravity always pulling us down with its weight. The muscle tendon channels are the lines of force for how we manage those forces within us and when we interact with another body.

I think that's what I mean. ;D
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