Internal Power From Deep Front Line

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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby robert on Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:31 am

In terms of cross body connection, if you look at the Chinese model I would point out a couple things one of which Graham alluded to above. If you are connected and you feel these connections or "lines of force" you'll be aware of your dantian. In my body all these muscle tendon channels connect at/thru my dantian and that gives me a cross body connection. There's also a middle dantian.

The other thing is that some of the channels come close to the center line of the body at the dantian. See the Tai Yin and Tai Yang foot channels. It seems to me the left and right Tai Yang foot channels are obviously connected at the spine.

Image

Image
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:46 pm

Robert - dick pics! :)

Another Thing to consider is the role of reverse breathing in relation to the muscle tendon channels. Initiating movement through breathing relating to open and close along the channels. Game changer.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby I-mon on Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:33 pm

GrahamB wrote:The thing with the muscle tendon channels is that while the theory is kind of similar they (generally) go from the fingers to the toes on the same sides of the body - that's an important distinction when it comes down to 'what do I actually do'.

They're not exactly the same as "meridians" but in a rough sort of sense the meridian channels map over the top of them (notice there is little 'cross body' going on):

Image

YMMV


Except that every single one of the meridians that run from top to bottom/bottom to top are connected across the body by the Dai Mai, Belt Vessel, remember?
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:33 am

They go through the dantien but still run up and down on the same side.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:02 pm

We seem to have wandered away from Stevens original post
I wonder if anyone can show specific exercises for these meridians
Or is it all just esoteric waffle
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby Steve Rowe on Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:29 am

All taiji works with pumps and bows, the standard 3 or 5 bows 'bow' from the traditional 4 pumps, (arch of foot, lower back, inbetween shoulder blades and base of the skull), the body core (deep front line) controls all this and will soften, connect, open, close, stretch, compress, twist and release for power. This should be evident in all taiji exercises and form and will be used continuously to power any movement.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby robert on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:31 am

I agree with Steve, this is a basic component of taiji training. Standing, silk reeling/neigong, forms, push-hands - first you have to learn how to use it (connection) and then when you can use it your training is conditioning this jin. You don't need to know the jing jin, but if you've been shown how to connect the body, how to use the "bows" of the body, this should make sense.

Steve says
This should be evident in all taiji exercises and form and will be used continuously to power any movement.

You have to move intentionally if you want to stay connected.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:38 am

I get what Steve is saying and think his explanation is good
I am talking more about those who advocate facia and 8 extra meridians
It is easy to talk about these things as existing but I am wondering how their use is envoked
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby BruceP on Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:38 pm

waste of bandwidth
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby robert on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:50 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I get what Steve is saying and think his explanation is good
I am talking more about those who advocate facia and 8 extra meridians

FWIW the jin of jing jin, as I understand it, is the soft tissue of the musculoskeletal system and as such includes fascia, but there is more to it than that. It is commonly translated as sinew and sometimes as muscle tendon. In translations of taiji classics they'll sometimes say to use sinew and not muscle ;) As I remember the jing jin do not have corollaries to the 8 extra meridians, but subsets of the jing jin overlap some of the 8 extra meridians - tai yang and tai yin overlap du and ren mai for example.

wayne hansen wrote:It is easy to talk about these things as existing but I am wondering how their use is envoked

Good taiji and qigong instructors usually say you need a good teacher ;) I think you need a good instructor to make the proper corrections.

Yang Chengfu specified ten essential points in the practice of taijiquan.

Xu Ling Ding Jin
Contain the Chest, Raise the Back,
Song the Yao
Separate Empty and Full
Sink Shoulder, Drop Elbow
Use Yi, Don't Use Li
Upper and Lower Mutually Follow
Inner and Outer Mutually Harmonize
Mutually Linked Without Gaps
Move Center, Seek Stillness

I think all of those except Separate Empty and Full are about connecting the body. There are basic postural requirements to be connected -
Xu Ling Ding Jin
Contain the Chest, Raise the Back,
Song the Yao
Sink Shoulder, Drop Elbow

And some how tos -
Use Yi, Don't Use Li
Upper and Lower Mutually Follow
Inner and Outer Mutually Harmonize
Mutually Linked Without Gaps
Move Center, Seek Stillness
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby I-mon on Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:47 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I get what Steve is saying and think his explanation is good
I am talking more about those who advocate facia and 8 extra meridians
It is easy to talk about these things as existing but I am wondering how their use is envoked


I made a playlist a few years ago of some of the basic exercises I use:
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:48 pm

I still just see theory and basic exercise that does not fit the rhetoric spoken about
Just one exercise that envokes the 8 extra meridians or the facia in a mindfull manner
There is nothing wrong with what you are all doing or saying but the theory has yet to be shown
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby I-mon on Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:43 pm

I'm not sure which rhetoric you're talking about, but for some basic theory on the training of the fascia (I mostly prefer to use the traditional term "connective tissue"), Robert Schliep is one of the original and leading researchers in the field. In this old paper he mentions the importance of elastic recoil for connective tissue training:

http://www.fasciaresearch.de/Schleip_TrainingPrinciplesFascial.pdf
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby I-mon on Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:48 pm

The paper in my post above also mentions "pre-loading" of tissues before movement as being important for influencing the connective tissue specifically, since it is during the pre-loading phase that the body "pulls together" in preparation for movement.

As for how to use the basic exercises mindfully for the development of connective tissue, using the exercises I was demonstrating in the video playlist, I work on initiating the movements from the central axis of the body pushing and pulling against the ground ("opening and closing"), and try to emphasise or amplify the feeling of the whole body pulling together and uniting in the moment before the rest of the body moves.

I'm not particularly attached to the meridian theory or the eight extraordinary vessels, although I am trained in TCM.
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Re: Internal Power From Deep Front Line

Postby GrahamB on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:22 pm

Wayne,

You don't need to worry about the acupuncture meridians for 'how to' stuff - they're not the same as the muscle tendon sinew channels, they're roughly drawn over the top of them (so useful for illustration a general concept like same sidedness) but they're more detailed /fiddly, and not as useful for ima work because of that. You need broader brush strokes.

You're starting point for developing connections would be open and close work. So (generally) the channels that go up the outside of the legs and up the back of the body are used for 'open' and the ones on the front of the body are for 'closing' movements.

Using the reverse breathing you try and feel a slight tension on the surface of the body and turn that into an opening outward or pulling in sensation, matched with movement. (E.g. I breathe in and try and feel a pull along the close channels of my arm and let that lead movement). You need to let this connection become the driver of the movement not the local muscles so much. Shoulders are usually the problem, as is relaxing the lower back sufficiently. Remember to drive power (Jin) from the lower body (closest to the ground). Connections start gossamer thin and build up over time.

Any ima movement would work for this, so find one you are familiar with and open up the back and close down the front. If I were to pick a movement to start with then a single arm silk reel would make most sense.

After months of work you should naturally be developing a sense of how the Dantien controls things.

I believe this is the basic path.

Alternatively (using the way most of us Westoners get taught) people learn lots of forms, techniques and exercises that make them feel like they know a lot, but then in 20 years they might meet an expert and realise that they didn't start with the basics...
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:10 am, edited 5 times in total.
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