the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I wish there was a way to discuss MA videos. The discussions just seem to devolve into a clash of personalities. One of the things I get from discussion is not if I am wrong or right, but rather using the questions to explore and learn.

I'd seen this clip before and wasn't sold. The old man is leaning in, and doesn't seem to have a base, he doesn't even have a foot forward. I don't know how you expect to move, especially when he's shape gets tangled with the younger guy's. If the younger guy steps back he be flat on his face.

aamc wrote:I'd seen this clip before and wasn't sold. The old man is leaning in, and doesn't seem to have a base, he doesn't even have a foot forward. I don't know how you expect to move, especially when he's shape gets tangled with the younger guy's. If the younger guy steps back he be flat on his face.

Yes, a very similar impression that I have got from various clips demonstrating "southern styles."

It's funny, that people here on this board are continuously arguing about that you need some external practice and foundation first before studying internal principles or principles prevalent in the so called internal arts. But by everything I have seen so far on the video tubes, everything points in the other direction, i.e. that you should definitely start with the internal aspects and keep them intact always. From there is where a great foundation is built.

In the Bao vs Hung Gar Grandpa death match, sorry Bao, but my money is on Grandpa!

How did I get in to the competition? Someone must have signed me up ...?

Bao wrote:
Yes, a very similar impression that I have got from various clips demonstrating "southern styles."

It's funny, that people here on this board are continuously arguing about that you need some external practice and foundation first before studying internal principles or principles prevalent in the so called internal arts. But by everything I have seen so far on the video tubes, everything points in the other direction, i.e. that you should definitely start with the internal aspects and keep them intact always. From there is where a great foundation is built.

The video is of a Hung Gar teacher in Singapore. I watched their Gung Ji Fuk Fu Kuen and that spoke volumes.

Sadly, too much credence is given to old Asian guys because they are old and Asian; the best teachers I have met have been neither.

Good southern systems will provide a solid foundation for internal work, but you will likely find little of that on youtube. Most of the Hung Gar I have seen and felt lacks something. Sure, some of them are physically strong and play forms prettily, but thats all, they lack proper hei gung, or it is superficial at best. Good southern systems have it in abundance.

Sadly, these days the idea of southern systems being 'hard', 'external' etc. is bandied about as a truth. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Very true. The danger of practicing a system like Hunggar, which emphasizes strong and solid "bridge hands" as well as conditioning, is that the practitioners tend to focus on the external aspects of the art. However, this is not to say that the internal side of the art does not exist.

See if you can find any film of Lam Cho or Y.C. Wong - you will see real Hung Gar with all of the same foundation and body skills that you would find in any "internal" style.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/sZW_UvwsrRM[/youtube]

I have no idea how to post videos, so I don't know if this will work. This is better quality Hung Gar. Cheung Yee Keung is a top student of the late Chan Hon Chung, who in turn was Lam Sai Wing's top student.

phil b wrote:
Sadly, too much credence is given to old Asian guys because they are old and Asian; the best teachers I have met have been neither.

Good southern systems will provide a solid foundation for internal work, but you will likely find little of that on youtube. Most of the Hung Gar I have seen and felt lacks something. Sure, some of them are physically strong and play forms prettily, but thats all, they lack proper hei gung, or it is superficial at best. Good southern systems have it in abundance.

Sadly, these days the idea of southern systems being 'hard', 'external' etc. is bandied about as a truth. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

DING DING DING ... we have a winna!

If the teachers and student did different forms of sparring and focused on functional skills - and not just chasing hands (in Hung Ga and of course in many Taijiquan and Wing Chun schools), suddenly the "Bridges" would start to work much better.

Please check out this article: Hung Ga’s Twelve Bridges Explained in Twelve Lines (Practical, Plain & Simple)

http://practicalhungkyun.com/2014/08/hu ... in-simple/

And for more theoretical background: “Twelve Bridge Hands” of Hung Ga

http://practicalhungkyun.com/2014/05/hu ... f-hung-ga/

Pavel Macek wrote:If the teachers and student did different forms of sparring and focused on functional skills - and not just chasing hands (in Hung Ga and of course in many Taijiquan and Wing Chun schools), suddenly the "Bridges" would start to work much better.

Please check out this article: Hung Ga’s Twelve Bridges Explained in Twelve Lines (Practical, Plain & Simple)

http://practicalhungkyun.com/2014/08/hu ... in-simple/

And for more theoretical background: “Twelve Bridge Hands” of Hung Ga

http://practicalhungkyun.com/2014/05/hu ... f-hung-ga/

In my experience it isn't even about sparring. Authentic training with a competent teacher will provide the necessary skills. The guys I know who are good Hung Gar men don't have the most beautiful forms, have barely ever sparred preferring to work on their traditional foundational skills, and yet have fought and won closed door fights with other schools as well as fights on the street.

phil b wrote:The video is of a Hung Gar teacher in Singapore. I watched their Gung Ji Fuk Fu Kuen and that spoke volumes.

Sadly, too much credence is given to old Asian guys because they are old and Asian; the best teachers I have met have been neither.

Good southern systems will provide a solid foundation for internal work, but you will likely find little of that on youtube. Most of the Hung Gar I have seen and felt lacks something. Sure, some of them are physically strong and play forms prettily, but thats all, they lack proper hei gung, or it is superficial at best. Good southern systems have it in abundance.

Sadly, these days the idea of southern systems being 'hard', 'external' etc. is bandied about as a truth. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

I've met wonderful Hunggar practitioners and I am aware of the internal practice. I do have a great respect for this art and it's depth. What I feel odd watching many Vids from different southern and external arts on the tubes is that in application so many people feel unbalanced and seem to lack control. One might think that all of this Mabu and similar stance practice should have an impact, that their stances and postures should look strong and rooted when they demonstrate application. But it's very seldom I see the same quality as from even intermediate so called "internal" stylists. You can compare with Tim Carmells very lively yet controlled footwork, with Xie Peiqi or Wang Peisheng.

For sure, there are other things missing in vids from different IMA practitioners, Tai Chi especially where few study real punching power and instead focus on PH pushes that have much less practical use. But I expect people who have practiced stances for twenty, thirty or forty years to look stable and balanced when someone apply force on them.

I've noticed that some schools might practice stances, but do not sufficiently practice footwork drills and spontaneous footwork. Such as training how to move with rooted agility between the kung fu stances to press in, retreat, circle around, attack the opponents stances, adjust your feet for correct spacing and timing etc, with the goal to simply be able to move spontaneously in the correct footwork as naturally as if you were walking down the street. I had to practice my footwork for 6 months before even learning the basic black tiger steals heart punch.

TravellingDragon wrote:I've noticed that some schools might practice stances, but do not sufficiently practice footwork drills and spontaneous footwork. Such as training how to move with rooted agility between the kung fu stances to press in, retreat, circle around, attack the opponents stances, adjust your feet for correct spacing and timing etc, with the goal to simply be able to move spontaneously in the correct footwork as naturally as if you were walking down the street. I had to practice my footwork for 6 months before even learning the basic black tiger steals heart punch.

In the school I trained, the basic forms taught you how to move. Stance training and stance testing ensured you built a solid base. There were footwork drills, but the forms have the necessary skills, if taught correctly.