What Is Peng

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Re: What Is Peng

Postby Itten on Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:50 am

Prefer this to see Peng in applications.

https://youtu.be/mvr_vqagayY
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:09 am

It's fine; I wasn't offended. Just seeing if we can get a clip for those guys asking. I have no connection to or particular affinity for the Italian, just throwing it out there.
We need more clips on Peng to illustrate, where's Marvin when you need him eh.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:33 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:37 am

Itten wrote:Prefer this to see Peng in applications.

https://youtu.be/mvr_vqagayY


nice clip

also shows that what the teacher demos in ph also works on the teacher regardless of
the size differential.

I don't think of Peng as up force, rather as a sphere expanding outwards in all directions simultaneously. So past the mid line of the body Peng presses down, above that line it uproots. I have felt people hit my legs with a down force and my upper body with an up force causing a "freeze" . So to me Peng is multi functional. How to develop it is the interesting part!


If I may add some thoughts.

You've outlined something which I very much agree with and use.

"the interesting part"

Of how to develop it, you've also already outlined, maybe just need to think about it a little.

" A sphere that expands" being a sphere it has to expand in all directions regardless of size.

It might be better to look at and understand where the radius of the sphere is or is not. This can be extended or decreased or the sphere formed can even be made by only a part of the body. It can be as small as the head of pin and larger then the body shape that forms it.

Being a sphere, it can also include another body as part of it, or not extended to the full dimensions of a body that is trying to form it.
When teachers correct others they are helping to correct for hollows, or to much fullness in the shape formed.
The force one would feel depends on how the lines of sphere are connected and what is done after its formed.

The problem for most is one of not understanding what a central axis is, why its needed and how its used...

Pung jin, might be described as the the boundary layer of the sphere achieving a state in which opposing forces or influences are balanced.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:12 am

I don't actually think it's necessary to conflate a "six direction" force or omni directional force with peng.
I think that's come about as a linguistic convenience. That body quality is a result of various things and peng has been equated with expansion. It does have that, because tai chi has that.... But the main expansion for Peng is on the verical axis.

Pulling silk, opening and six directions all have the same result as this version of "peng". What the point, what's the added value ?

So if you expanded or inflated like a ball in six or all directions that equals peng?
Well no, I dont think so.

Tai chi uses 4 primary forces and these primary forces equate in simple terms to 4 basic directions; that mix and morph into multi directional forces.

The up and down force of six directions fame is like the one that covers peng and an. They both have and use this 2 directional opposing forces, just in opposite directions.
So for peng the forces move away from eachother up and down so the projection of force is up; in An they move towards eachother up and down where the projection of force is directed downwards. These projections of force can also be directed forward, backward or toward the sides

Rotating to the rear is Lu and tringulating forwards is Ji. IOW forward and back. 4 primary energies match to 4 primary directions.
As with the former two the direction of the force can be changed eg. Ji can be forward and down or forward and up.

So they begin to combine and mix into eachother.

This other quality everyone likes to equate with peng is inherent in the method of this art and others. You can call it peng, other people can call it peng. But it actually just muddies the water and it's a result of other factors besides like opening; opening is expansion too isn't it, what about opening with six directions ?
Why don't the classics describe peng like that and equate it with those terms; maybe because they are thought of as not one and the same after all.

I know it's very popular to lump it all together, and i might have done so before, but I can hardly see any point now in my practice. I can have an 'omni expansion' and I can have a more specific peng. It's clearer and simpler and it matches to what the vast majority of taiji descriptions concur to.

For example you cant have peng in closing/ contracting movements by your definition. By your definition it wouldn't be there, and not by mine either.
that's because that particular body quality isn't really peng at all - it's how the body is held, it's how the posture is held. It's the expansion that comes form pulling silk, it's the expansion from keeping six direction force.

Peng is a force with a very specific result on the other person. In it's most simplest there is a sinking to the feet and a resultant rising to the hands and fills all the body; the feet support the hands.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:28 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:24 am

Peng is a directed force with a very specific result on the other person.


there is pung, a movement and pung jin, a property of something that a movement has or not.

So if you expanded or inflated like a ball in six or all directions that equals peng?
Well no, I dont think so.


Its ok not to think so,,,it would be better to know.
how does one inflate like a ball?

something one might think about. any force felt either from ones self or another
means that one has not reached equilibrium. One can only feel their own force.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:32 am

windwalker wrote:
Peng is a directed force with a very specific result on the other person.


there is pung, a movement and pung jin, a property of something that a movement has or not.

So if you expanded or inflated like a ball in six or all directions that equals peng?
Well no, I dont think so.


Its ok not to think so,,,it would be better to know.
how does one inflate like a ball?


jin just means force or skill.

I don't disagree with inflating like a ball as either, it's whether it really deserves to be called "peng". tai chi should be rounded and spherical in nature, I'm not arguing against that. But do we call that peng - well many people can and do, I just question here the value of that; i think it's just become a convenience more than anything.
I think it's covered by opening which is expanding outward, which should carry within it six direction forces.

What's the point to mix them up, other than to obfuscate things that could otherwise be articulated seperately and clearer in my opinion.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:38 am

jin just means force or skill.


interesting enough I had this discussion today with some of those I work with.
"jin" in this context refers to force that penetrates or goes through, as in
the force of water in a hose not the hose itself, or the ability of the force to pass through
what ever it connects with as in a wave which transports its energy without transporting matter.

others may find different. ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:40 am

The boat and water analogy is a very good one I think for peng.

The main forces are the boat going down and the water rising up - that's perfect right there.. But what also happens is that the boat also displaces some water outward to all sides through that primary combination of down/ up. The water rising is the primary part, the water displacing some to the sides is secondary energy/force and acts as support. That's because we are in 3D, that's because we are connected all around, which means up and down must have some effect on forward back and left and right. And it work the other way to. If you primarily expanded forward and back that would have some secondary effect on the other main directions..
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:05 am

But do we call that peng - well many people can and do, I just question here the value of that; i think it's just become a convenience more than anything.


The value is for those that use the same word within the same context, that it allows something to be examined and explained quite clearly.
There is no ambiguity, its quite descriptive and meaningful with in this context.

For example when one has reached equilibrium with in themselves, they have "pung jin"
in this case equilibrium means all forces have canceled each other out. The boundary layer the raidus
of the sphere formed may not be well defined or clear this alone is a lot of work.

when we talk of "pung" it means to expand the area, there's a couple of different ways of achieving this.
many of which the classics out line quite nicely

what it means is that the expending force is at any point, and all points, even beyond. The surface touched it can be felt if its well developed and very
clear...it will feel as though one is being repelled back with no outer movement. In most cases what is seen in demos is following something that has already passed though...which is why for those who look at matter to transport energy,, might not understand how energy can be transported with out transporting the matter. A simple movement will have effects far out of proportion to the movement itself. This is what many question.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:17 am

The boat and water analogy is a very good one I think for peng.


The problem with this analogy, is that it often leads one to the wrong conclusions.
Think about it.

Then even if a feather or something as light as a fly falls on the body, it will be felt. But one does not allow the feather to stop or the fly to rest its feet. The feather cannot stop because it does not arrive at a flat or stable surface, For the same reason, the fly cannot stand balanced; it will not stop its fluttering wings and alight on the body. This is an extreme way of describing the light agility of Taiji push-hands.


boats and such weigh a lot more then flies and feathers ;)
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:19 am

I'm not a word or language nazi, so I won't tell other people what to call things. And It's not something that I need to get bothered about for sure.
I agree that sometimes we use words we find convenient, so it's fine how it gets used contextually and in communications in other schools, by other teachers and so on.

I think I've given enough valid reasoning of why i would hold on to one particular version of peng rather than two.

It's not that I don't understand what you're describing as peng, it's whether myself or anyone really can just as well say expansion or inflation or opening or omni directional force. It's more about what you can find useful in language terms and ones training.

I have spoken about what can be acheived by a bunch of conceptiol training devices none of which are in of themselves necessarily "peng" or equivelent to it. As for getting into other things re. how force travels etc. Again i think that's extending the meaning further than necessary. Some kind of Inflation and or expansion are elements that crossover peng and other training devices/ concepts. It's not that big of a deal. It's fine for a single word to take on more than one use or meaning, but for practicality if we have other words that can and do describe that atrribute in a more direct and clear way, I think its preferable. Others may disagree and I'm not in a position to say it's wrong, simply because language in my belief is there to be useful for thos using it to communicate.

In the end we can communicate in a way that suits us best, whether that's individually or collectively.

We're also dealing with here with the English language and how we best can translate and describe in ways that clarify a foreign idea and group of concepts. Assigning one too many meanings and contexts to one foreign language word I think makes things a little less intuitively clear.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:23 am

windwalker wrote:
The boat and water analogy is a very good one I think for peng.


The problem with this analogy, is that it often leads one to the wrong conclusions.
Think about it.

Then even if a feather or something as light as a fly falls on the body, it will be felt. But one does not allow the feather to stop or the fly to rest its feet. The feather cannot stop because it does not arrive at a flat or stable surface, For the same reason, the fly cannot stand balanced; it will not stop its fluttering wings and alight on the body. This is an extreme way of describing the light agility of Taiji push-hands.


boats and such weigh a lot more then flies and feathers ;)



Why do we have to bring in flies and feathers to this. It seems like we're getting to the point of using Peng as a catch all for a bunch of things that we can and do articulate seperately.

I can appreciate the usefullness of drawing things together, connecting things and ultimately integration is important.
I think maybe you need to spell out for me the wrong conclusions that analogy leads to as I'm not figuring it out for the moment.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:41 am

Thanks for an insightful and well reasoned "discussion"
always good ;)

We're also dealing with here with the English language and how we best can translate and describe in ways that clarify a foreign idea and group of concepts. Assigning to many meanings and contexts to one foreign language word I think makes things a little less intuitively clear.


The thing is, is that in china, and here. I can ask or they can ask for more "pung" or talk about there is no pung or ect. and its perfectly clear.
I can not ask them to expand more or what ever, I just say "pung" and they know what I mean or I what they mean. I use physics to explain what, why, and how to achieve or cause it. We test in accordance with the theory....why it works and when it does not...

In the process now of aligning as much as I can with physics, working with some who teach robotics here, or hold advanced degrees in physics or other engineering disciplines. They are often surprised about how taiji can be related and explained directly using physics. They on the other hand question and challenge my use and understanding of physics. We talk of "moments of inertia" ect...its very clear, repeatable and precise.

many of the older gen teachers are also adopting this approach.

thanks for a good discussion, I suspect we probably agree on more then what it may seem.. ;)
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:50 am

Why do we have to bring in flies and feathers to this. It seems like we're getting to the point of using Peng as a catch all for a bunch of things that we can and do articulate seperately.


damm flies, and feathers,, :P

All or most demos using or demoing pung jin.
what are they really demoing.. ;)

pung is property, that is developed and expressed that arises
once certain other conditions are met or have been developed.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Is Peng

Postby cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:00 am

windwalker wrote:Thanks for an insightful and well reasoned "discussion"
always good ;)

We're also dealing with here with the English language and how we best can translate and describe in ways that clarify a foreign idea and group of concepts. Assigning to many meanings and contexts to one foreign language word I think makes things a little less intuitively clear.


The thing is, is that in china, and here. I can ask or they can ask for more "pung" or talk about there is no pung or ect. and its perfectly clear.
I can not ask them to expand more or what ever, I just say "pung" and they know what I mean or I what they mean. I use physics to explain what, why, and how to achieve or cause it. We test in accordance with the theory....why it works and when it does not...

In the process now of aligning as much as I can with physics, working with some who teach robotics here, or hold advanced degrees in physics or other engineering disciplines. They are often surprised about how taiji can be related and explained directly using physics. They on the other hand question and challenge my use and understanding of physics. We talk of "moments of inertia" ect...its very clear, repeatable and precise.

many of the older gen teachers are also adopting this approach.

thanks for a good discussion, I suspect we probably agree on more then what it may seem.. ;)


It sounds like you're asking for a force, perhaps trained force is more the meaning of jin, rather than "any old force".
In the above, If it were me and you asked for more Ji, what would be the difference ?

Also I don't necessarily mean expanding in the structural or physical sense. That description can apply to inner force itself.

As I was saying Peng does expand up and down primarily, but if you (train to) combine forces of up down forward and back and sides; you can have both directed forces and balanced forces together to use how and when.

The 4 primary energies combine the six directions, one single omni directional energy is but one variation and less useful than mixing them and changing between them. I just think for convenience people have come to use peng as a term for an omni directional balanced force. The difference with that is there is no clear Primary direction for the projection of force or a primary 2 way force balance for that projection and use. All become primary rather than combining primary and secondary to have clear use of them. All should be balanced. For solo and body training there are good alternative descriptions and devices, but calling it peng is common and I do it too, or have. Doesn't mean I have to 100% agree with it.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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