Examples of Peng Jin

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Examples of Peng Jin

Postby robert on Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:47 am

As most people on this list probably know there are two types of peng jin. One is the core skill in which the body is relaxed (fang song) and connected and the other is the first of the eight types of jin. The first type of jin is up and out and not surprisingly is how the core skill is often demonstrated.

http://youtu.be/VNheplLJXjo?t=58s

At the beginning of this video
http://youtu.be/LSHT47yuQAw

Also at the beginning of this - the first few examples are peng jin, you can hear it if you listen, until 0:50. As the core skill, if you're familar with it, you'll see it in all the examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_IKlD4300E&

I haven't met any of these people, but they all look relaxed and connected.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:46 pm

The first is just hard against hard and not much skill shown
The second is the hoping of a co operative student
The third is the most skilful and showing the 8 pillars and their uses not fa Jing
Saying that some fa Jing is used but like the previous two it combines the two a static hardness of the student and cooperation by hoping
Real fa Jing only works against a live skilful attack and the only place I see that being done is the old pushing clips of Tung
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:01 pm

robert wrote:As most people on this list probably know there are two types of peng jin. One is the core skill in which the body is relaxed (fang song) and connected and the other is the first of the eight types of jin. The first type of jin is up and out and not surprisingly is how the core skill is often demonstrated.

http://youtu.be/VNheplLJXjo?t=58s

At the beginning of this video
http://youtu.be/LSHT47yuQAw

Also at the beginning of this - the first few examples are peng jin, you can hear it if you listen, until 0:50. As the core skill, if you're familar with it, you'll see it in all the examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_IKlD4300E&

I haven't met any of these people, but they all look relaxed and connected.


Have you ever heard of or seen this word used outside of a taiji concept. If one is relaxed and connected does that mean they have pung jin or is there something more

I think pung jin would be better translated as expanding power, I am not aware of it having a direction
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby robert on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:02 pm

windwalker wrote:
Have you ever heard of or seen this word used outside of a taiji concept. If one is relaxed and connected does that mean they have pung jin or is there something more

Peng is taiji terminology although when I first started learning IMA it was being discussed online and as I started to meet martial artists from China I asked a couple bagua guys about it and, of course, they knew what it was and said it was important to learn. I don't know if there is a term for it in bagua, but if people understand it it is written about in the Liang Zhenpu bagua songs. In fact in the first song.

Hollow the chest, suspend the crown, and sink the waist,
Swing the step, join the knees, and grasp the ground firmly,
Sink the shoulders and drop the elbow to extend the forward palm,
The eyes watch between the thumb and index finger.

And in Song 24

Strong force is released from tendons and bone,
Firmness from the bones is channeled by the tendons,
The big tendon of the heel connects to the spine and head,
Extend the power by using the follow step.


In xinyi I think it is referred to as six sided power and in yiquan it is called contradictory power.

I think being relaxed and connected is a minimalist description and is constrained by the examples provided and is directed to an audience who is interested in IMAs. You would have to be shown what relaxed and connected means by a good instructor and contrary to what some videos on youtube say it is not a trick that you can learn in a few minutes. It takes years to learn how to relax and to connect. If you look at the examples the people are moving and if you start to talk about how to use jin you could write a book.

windwalker wrote:I think pung jin would be better translated as expanding power, I am not aware of it having a direction

I would agree about the core skill, but if you are talking about the 8 jin - an jin is down and out so if peng is out or expanding what is the difference between an jin and peng jin?
Last edited by robert on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby charles on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:24 pm

robert wrote:... an jin is down and out so if peng is out or expanding what is the difference between an jin and peng jin?


About 15 years ago, I was the person who originally put the old Japanese video of Feng demonstrating the ba fa on Youtube - I added the titles, which were not part of the original video, and the excerpt I posted, titles and all, has been reposted many times by different people on Youtube, such as the one you posted. What I was taught - Feng was my teacher's teacher - is that an jin is downwards and is "closing". Feng makes this clear later in the video when he demonstrates it. Peng jin is upwards and outwards, away from the center and is "opening". However, as I was taught, it's all peng jin, just different classifications of its use. That is peng, the "quality", is used throughout. Peng, the quality, is what underlies each of peng, lu, ji, an... Using that quality in an upward outward direction is peng; using that quality inwards/towards the rear is lu ...This is clearly illustrated in Feng's video, which I posted in two parts. (Look up "charles tauber" on Youtube, you'll find the second part.)

Feng also has a set of drills - with and without walking - that reinforce each of the ba fa. Those can be found on-line as well.

Others define the ba fa differently. YMMV.
Last edited by charles on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby robert on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:58 pm

Thanks for posting that video of Feng originally, I like that. I was thinking of an as push as in liu feng si bi or the way it is used in push hands. Investigating a bit shows besides down, it can be a push down, out, or up. Thanks for the information.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:05 pm

edited :P
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby charles on Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:14 pm

robert wrote: I was thinking of an as push as in liu feng si bi or the way it is used in push hands. Investigating a bit shows besides down, it can be a push down, out, or up. Thanks for the information.


In Feng's forms, liu feng si bi is used to sit on the opponent's upper leg while pushing with one or both hands directly down into the opponent's hip joint, crumpling him, an application of "an". In Xin Jia, one application is to trap the opponent's hands in your elbow joints by circling your arms outwards and over top of his. The body is then lowered, pulling the opponent forward a bit and down, "an", compromising his stance. This can be followed by pushing more-or-less horizontally, "ji", into the opponent's chest, after his stance is compromised. I don't recall seeing an application for it that is upwards.
Last edited by charles on Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby robert on Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:43 pm

windwalker wrote:

very correct one might add also understanding what one is connecting to
and not. ;)

I don't think it is a question of what one is connecting to, but being connected, as one part of the body moves the whole body moves. The Taijiquan Jing starts off
In motion the whole body should be light and agile, with all parts of the body linked as if threaded together.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:54 pm

robert wrote:
windwalker wrote:

very correct one might add also understanding what one is connecting to
and not. ;)

I don't think it is a question of what one is connecting to, but being connected, as one part of the body moves the whole body moves. The Taijiquan Jing starts off
In motion the whole body should be light and agile, with all parts of the body linked as if threaded together.


We have different ideas, which is why I edited my post.

At any rate not something I feel worth explaining...just different view points born of apparently different experiences.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby robert on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:13 pm

peng jin, peng jing can be the same thing just different romanization. Jin is pinyin. Peng jin can be confusing since it refers to a core skill as well as one of the 8 powers. I think it is an interesting discussion.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:42 pm

robert wrote:peng jin, peng jing can be the same thing just different romanization. Jin is pinyin. Peng jin can be confusing since it refers to a core skill as well as one of the 8 powers. I think it is an interesting discussion.


yes it is which is why I wont say to much.

The understanding of what "jin" means and is, seems to me would be the basic starting point.
How/why / pung/peng "jin" can be/ is/ formed and how it manifest itself seems to be a different point

Not something I feel worth interrupting your thread about.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:24 am

Oh perfect, I was thinking last night someone should start this thread. Thanks Robert.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby robert on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:54 am

windwalker wrote:
robert wrote:peng jin, peng jing can be the same thing just different romanization. Jin is pinyin. Peng jin can be confusing since it refers to a core skill as well as one of the 8 powers. I think it is an interesting discussion.


yes it is which is why I wont say to much.

The understanding of what "jin" means and is, seems to me would be the basic starting point.
How/why / pung/peng "jin" can be/ is/ formed and how it manifest itself seems to be a different point

Not something I feel worth interrupting your thread about.

Part of the confusion is that jin is translated variously as skill, strength, energy, and power. In martial arts it is something of a technical term, I am told, and combines all these meanings.

The term neijin means internal strength/refined strength and used in context is usually referred to as jin.
There are many types of jin in taiji. One of the jin is ting jin which gets translated as listening jin. The idea is that you use it to feel what your opponent is doing. This seems like it is more of a skill than a strength. Chan nien jin is adhering or sticking jin and also seems like it is more of a skill than a strength. These can be contrasted to the 8 jin of taiji: peng, luo, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao. These are 8 ways to apply jin which might be thought of as strength skillfully applied. And of course there are many other types of jin.

When peng jin is used to refer to the core skill in taiji, as Cloudz said in another thread, "The water and hose analogy is a good one here. Your tai chi postures should all have that feeling, they should all have that connected springy elastic feel. People call that peng I think, and they say (correctly) that you should have this quality throughout. " I've also heard people describe it as an inflated ball.

Peng jin as a way to apply strength is described as a outward expanding jin - when the hands rise in the first posture of taiji or ward off in Yang style or the same movements in jin gang dao dui in Chen style are examples.

The confusion is apparent, the same term refers to two different, but related concepts.
Last edited by robert on Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:05 pm

IMO, all good CMAists, regardless of style, possess Peng Jin. Different styles have different names for it, and many don't even talk about it; they simply consider it as one of the results of correct regular training. It is the physical quality that makes one immovable and able to bounce away incoming forces that come into contact with them.

In the arts I have practiced, this physical quality is -- at the most fundamental level -- developed through mindfully expanding and opening the joints in multiple directions.
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