Examples of Peng Jin

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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby everything on Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:01 am

wuwei sifu, thanks, I can relate to everything you wrote even though I haven't played that much tennis or table tennis (enough to see these similarities).

Bao, Trick, that's what I'm talking about. I don't want to experience that kind of punch. The push is enough. This is something qualitatively different than anything in table tennis (AFAIK). It is mysterious (and sounds totally, totally unbelievable). This is the only thing that is mysterious and interesting in IMA as far as I am concerned. It's ironic people think we literally mean "push" but I can see how it sounds like total b.s. and raving lunatics. :D :-\

For the sports stuff, I guess it is more "ordinary" but highly trained jin. Definitely not brute force or disconnected. Next someone would say that Mike Tyson's left hook isn't directed from the waist etc etc. ??? ::)

Edit: it is probably better to just say that "internal" should match "external" so in some external move there is internal and in internal there is external.
Last edited by everything on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:29 pm

I have always used Tyson as an example of tai chi energy
Due to him being shorter than most of his opponents he always hits up from the ground
He follows the energy
Rooted in the feet
Sprouts from the thighs
Directed by the waist
Manifests in the fingertips
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wuwei sifu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:41 am

Bao wrote:
wuwei sifu wrote:NOW SO FAR AS PENG IS CONCERNED YOU HAVE TO BE SUNG IN TABLE TENNIS JUST LIKE IN TAIJIQUAN IN ORDER TO BEST EXPRESS POWER/SPEED AS WELL AS MORE SUBTLE ACTIONS ON DEFENSE AND MORE NEUTRAL TRANSITIONS BASED ON HOW U NEED TO RETURN THE BALL. i'VE has ALWAYS been able to relate to both very easily and having a couple of russian coaches made me understand things on a more intimate level then your avg. ping pong player who doesn't have a coach.

yes, the idea of the body and energy being whole and connected is a peng jing essential. it's the same in many tennis and table tennis shots and they are producing whole body power.


"song"/"sung" is relaxation. I don't know exactly how you mean that peng should be a part of table tennis...

well 1st. i think we both know that sung is more than just simple relaxation.

I'm glad you don't know because i never said that peng should be a part of table tennis rofl. my words are still here. which means that you chose to make an interpretation of what I actually said by adding to what I said instead of accepting what I said at face value. i never inferred such an idea either btw cause I do not believe it to be the case nor ever thought about it.

'based on my quote you chose. I certainly didn't mean to imply that PENG was bing used in table tennis or tennis because it is not. I DID MEAN WHAT I SAID ABOUT USING WHOLE BODY POWER THOUGH BECAUSE THAT IS THE CASE. Yet, that in of itself is not Peng . I admit i have an atypical way of expressing myself. I didn't mean to confuse you or others and i apologize if I did so.


when you read my signature message you can now relate why i made it so. ;D btw i fully realize you had no ill will or malicious intent by misquoting me. you simply did not pay close enough attention. imho peace
Last edited by wuwei sifu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
when you misinterpret my words please don't blame me for that; or act like i said what you changed based on a faulty interpretation instead of taking my words as written ! (I know, this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth)
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wuwei sifu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:02 am

wayne hansen wrote:I have always used Tyson as an example of tai chi energy
Due to him being shorter than most of his opponents he always hits up from the ground
He follows the energy
Rooted in the feet
Sprouts from the thighs
Directed by the waist
Manifests in the fingertips


which is ironically the same motion in many tennis or table tennis shots and i tried to give my point of view based on my personal experience with them in relationship to taijiquan. However, the fact is even though all 3 tyson, table tennis and tennis use that kinetic chain it does not in of itself = tai chi energy because all of them actually lack peng force.

tyson makes a good example of one aspect of what taiji players do mechanically. yet, to say it's tai chi energy tat he shows is just not correct. no more correct then to say your avg. karate or Shaolin guys are expressing taiji energy when their mechanics use the same kinetic chain to deliver force. a whip too has a kinetic chain that taijiquan players can duplicate but is the whip an example of taijiquan energy no, it's not. yet, the whip can be used an example of one aspect of what a taijiquan player can express. imho
when you misinterpret my words please don't blame me for that; or act like i said what you changed based on a faulty interpretation instead of taking my words as written ! (I know, this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth)
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wuwei sifu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:32 am

windwalker wrote:
IMO, this might have to do with that the perfectly relaxed and connected limb offer no resistance for the kinetic energy. What the reciever feels is both the impact of the body (mostly the hand/fist) and then also the kinetic movement itself.


If there is no resistance to the "kinetic energy" why would a receiver feel the impact from a localized source ie.
"hand/fist" and then from "the movement itself"

to answer your question. imho you basically mashed up an idea in your mind of what he is trying to explain. you have confused the idea of the person issuing force that does so in a way that does not hinder the energy projected with a faulty conclusion that you came too based on your misunderstanding of what he was trying to say.

so to make it more clear if what you assumed he was trying to say was correct then you would also be correct in what the receiver would not feel. but since you missed the point your conclusion is made mute by windwalkers actual intent/answer.






IME, when you manage to issue this kind of force, the more the receiver feels, the less the issuer feels. It feels as you did almost nothing at all, as there is nothing in the body that stop or limit the transferring of the force from the center of own's own body into the receiver. So you won't feel anything of the force or of the transmission itself.


I can attest to the above form personal experience as i know others who are beyond my meager skills can relate to also.
when I used press against my teacher, his eyes got huge. when we later talked about it and he asked me what I had done.
I said nothing I just used press is all. then I broke down how I actually did my press which = I expand outwardly but not in just one direction.

years later teaching a student I used press again. YangYi's feet left the floor and he ended up on his but and slid a bit before stopping. it sort of hurt because he had his wallet in his back pocket and the impact made that part of his butt hurt. He did not feel any pain at the point of contact or anywhere else in his body. he only felt the consequences of himself hitting the floor and nothing more.

Yet, because this happened and I had not intended it to happen I realized that I had to be more careful with what I did with people. I had always made it a point, not to have any type of malice/feelings of anger when showing applications independently or via tui shou. I thought at that time that was enough to keep folks safe. I later realized because of the incident with YangYi that the force would come out without me being in real attack mode or angry at all.
I never felt any hint of something in me that would let me know I was about to do something that could cause such an extreme reaction in someone else. Lesson learned

IME the receiver, will also not feel anything and yet be moved.
I would say what the issuer feels or not depends on whether he is ahead of or behind the "energy" being transported by what I would call a wave.
All reactions by the receiver are from the bodies interaction in trying to reestablish its equilibrium from what it feels....either falling down or hoping up
trying not to fall.

Since its obviously not a kinetic force by a solid medium, most will and do question why people react the way they do.
It becomes hard to believe for most watching.



ok, I want to know how can we be ahead of the energy that we project if it is coming from us. I don't understand ???
when you misinterpret my words please don't blame me for that; or act like i said what you changed based on a faulty interpretation instead of taking my words as written ! (I know, this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth)
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:46 pm

ok, I want to know how can we be ahead of the energy that we project if it is coming from us. I don't understand


easy ;)

Crack a whip, and move the base before the wave induced reaches the end.

For many their timing is off wanting to hit with the base instead of allowing the product "wave" to
cause the reaction....For the sender if correct in producing this they should feel very little sensation until they develop a "feeling" for it.
Often this is a main sticking point for those looking for power and not feeling any....and yet causing a reaction...

years later teaching a student I used press again. YangYi's feet left the floor and he ended up on his but and slid a bit before stopping. it sort of hurt because he had his wallet in his back pocket and the impact made that part of his butt hurt. He did not feel any pain at the point of contact or anywhere else in his body. he only felt the consequences of himself hitting the floor and nothing more.


a good example one that most as I can relate to who've done this or had it done to them. ;)


Often people will ask if the one who reacted is faking it,,,,that is until they are the one reacting from it....This is a hard point to get over for most, until they start to be able to do it...

Using this one can be behind, with, or ahead of...the wave. behind and ahead of will feel like "force" colliding with the others structure
they will feel it as force...

If one can use and allow the wave to interact with another most will not feel this but will react to the "energy" and will move not understanding
how or why as in the many demos that people often question.

One can interfere with their own timing...if one is unaware of what they'er doing, the why and how it works.
Often in taiji its said that "higher seems higher, lower seems lower" ;)


Some have talked about pushing vs punching...in taiji "push" is a way of training whats called "long force" we also have "short force" "cold jin"
In either case the way and how the "force" produced is the same,,,,only the intent is different.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:09 pm

The explanation of the whip is spot on
Prolonged energy and abrupt are right but cold or cold shaking energy is not the same as short or abrupt energy
Short energy can be taught to someone with good basic coordination but cold energy is another thing
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