Examples of Peng Jin

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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby everything on Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:01 am

wuwei sifu, thanks, I can relate to everything you wrote even though I haven't played that much tennis or table tennis (enough to see these similarities).

Bao, Trick, that's what I'm talking about. I don't want to experience that kind of punch. The push is enough. This is something qualitatively different than anything in table tennis (AFAIK). It is mysterious (and sounds totally, totally unbelievable). This is the only thing that is mysterious and interesting in IMA as far as I am concerned. It's ironic people think we literally mean "push" but I can see how it sounds like total b.s. and raving lunatics. :D :-\

For the sports stuff, I guess it is more "ordinary" but highly trained jin. Definitely not brute force or disconnected. Next someone would say that Mike Tyson's left hook isn't directed from the waist etc etc. ??? ::)

Edit: it is probably better to just say that "internal" should match "external" so in some external move there is internal and in internal there is external.
Last edited by everything on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:29 pm

I have always used Tyson as an example of tai chi energy
Due to him being shorter than most of his opponents he always hits up from the ground
He follows the energy
Rooted in the feet
Sprouts from the thighs
Directed by the waist
Manifests in the fingertips
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wuwei sifu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:41 am

Bao wrote:
wuwei sifu wrote:NOW SO FAR AS PENG IS CONCERNED YOU HAVE TO BE SUNG IN TABLE TENNIS JUST LIKE IN TAIJIQUAN IN ORDER TO BEST EXPRESS POWER/SPEED AS WELL AS MORE SUBTLE ACTIONS ON DEFENSE AND MORE NEUTRAL TRANSITIONS BASED ON HOW U NEED TO RETURN THE BALL. i'VE has ALWAYS been able to relate to both very easily and having a couple of russian coaches made me understand things on a more intimate level then your avg. ping pong player who doesn't have a coach.

yes, the idea of the body and energy being whole and connected is a peng jing essential. it's the same in many tennis and table tennis shots and they are producing whole body power.


"song"/"sung" is relaxation. I don't know exactly how you mean that peng should be a part of table tennis...

well 1st. i think we both know that sung is more than just simple relaxation.

I'm glad you don't know because i never said that peng should be a part of table tennis rofl. my words are still here. which means that you chose to make an interpretation of what I actually said by adding to what I said instead of accepting what I said at face value. i never inferred such an idea either btw cause I do not believe it to be the case nor ever thought about it.

'based on my quote you chose. I certainly didn't mean to imply that PENG was bing used in table tennis or tennis because it is not. I DID MEAN WHAT I SAID ABOUT USING WHOLE BODY POWER THOUGH BECAUSE THAT IS THE CASE. Yet, that in of itself is not Peng . I admit i have an atypical way of expressing myself. I didn't mean to confuse you or others and i apologize if I did so.


when you read my signature message you can now relate why i made it so. ;D btw i fully realize you had no ill will or malicious intent by misquoting me. you simply did not pay close enough attention. imho peace
Last edited by wuwei sifu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wuwei sifu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:02 am

wayne hansen wrote:I have always used Tyson as an example of tai chi energy
Due to him being shorter than most of his opponents he always hits up from the ground
He follows the energy
Rooted in the feet
Sprouts from the thighs
Directed by the waist
Manifests in the fingertips


which is ironically the same motion in many tennis or table tennis shots and i tried to give my point of view based on my personal experience with them in relationship to taijiquan. However, the fact is even though all 3 tyson, table tennis and tennis use that kinetic chain it does not in of itself = tai chi energy because all of them actually lack peng force.

tyson makes a good example of one aspect of what taiji players do mechanically. yet, to say it's tai chi energy tat he shows is just not correct. no more correct then to say your avg. karate or Shaolin guys are expressing taiji energy when their mechanics use the same kinetic chain to deliver force. a whip too has a kinetic chain that taijiquan players can duplicate but is the whip an example of taijiquan energy no, it's not. yet, the whip can be used an example of one aspect of what a taijiquan player can express. imho
when you misinterpret my words please don't blame me for that; or act like i said what you changed based on a faulty interpretation instead of taking my words as written ! (I know, this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth)
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wuwei sifu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:32 am

windwalker wrote:
IMO, this might have to do with that the perfectly relaxed and connected limb offer no resistance for the kinetic energy. What the reciever feels is both the impact of the body (mostly the hand/fist) and then also the kinetic movement itself.


If there is no resistance to the "kinetic energy" why would a receiver feel the impact from a localized source ie.
"hand/fist" and then from "the movement itself"

to answer your question. imho you basically mashed up an idea in your mind of what he is trying to explain. you have confused the idea of the person issuing force that does so in a way that does not hinder the energy projected with a faulty conclusion that you came too based on your misunderstanding of what he was trying to say.

so to make it more clear if what you assumed he was trying to say was correct then you would also be correct in what the receiver would not feel. but since you missed the point your conclusion is made mute by windwalkers actual intent/answer.






IME, when you manage to issue this kind of force, the more the receiver feels, the less the issuer feels. It feels as you did almost nothing at all, as there is nothing in the body that stop or limit the transferring of the force from the center of own's own body into the receiver. So you won't feel anything of the force or of the transmission itself.


I can attest to the above form personal experience as i know others who are beyond my meager skills can relate to also.
when I used press against my teacher, his eyes got huge. when we later talked about it and he asked me what I had done.
I said nothing I just used press is all. then I broke down how I actually did my press which = I expand outwardly but not in just one direction.

years later teaching a student I used press again. YangYi's feet left the floor and he ended up on his but and slid a bit before stopping. it sort of hurt because he had his wallet in his back pocket and the impact made that part of his butt hurt. He did not feel any pain at the point of contact or anywhere else in his body. he only felt the consequences of himself hitting the floor and nothing more.

Yet, because this happened and I had not intended it to happen I realized that I had to be more careful with what I did with people. I had always made it a point, not to have any type of malice/feelings of anger when showing applications independently or via tui shou. I thought at that time that was enough to keep folks safe. I later realized because of the incident with YangYi that the force would come out without me being in real attack mode or angry at all.
I never felt any hint of something in me that would let me know I was about to do something that could cause such an extreme reaction in someone else. Lesson learned

IME the receiver, will also not feel anything and yet be moved.
I would say what the issuer feels or not depends on whether he is ahead of or behind the "energy" being transported by what I would call a wave.
All reactions by the receiver are from the bodies interaction in trying to reestablish its equilibrium from what it feels....either falling down or hoping up
trying not to fall.

Since its obviously not a kinetic force by a solid medium, most will and do question why people react the way they do.
It becomes hard to believe for most watching.



ok, I want to know how can we be ahead of the energy that we project if it is coming from us. I don't understand ???
when you misinterpret my words please don't blame me for that; or act like i said what you changed based on a faulty interpretation instead of taking my words as written ! (I know, this is the internet, but that doesn't mean you can put words in my mouth)
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:46 pm

ok, I want to know how can we be ahead of the energy that we project if it is coming from us. I don't understand


easy ;)

Crack a whip, and move the base before the wave induced reaches the end.

For many their timing is off wanting to hit with the base instead of allowing the product "wave" to
cause the reaction....For the sender if correct in producing this they should feel very little sensation until they develop a "feeling" for it.
Often this is a main sticking point for those looking for power and not feeling any....and yet causing a reaction...

years later teaching a student I used press again. YangYi's feet left the floor and he ended up on his but and slid a bit before stopping. it sort of hurt because he had his wallet in his back pocket and the impact made that part of his butt hurt. He did not feel any pain at the point of contact or anywhere else in his body. he only felt the consequences of himself hitting the floor and nothing more.


a good example one that most as I can relate to who've done this or had it done to them. ;)


Often people will ask if the one who reacted is faking it,,,,that is until they are the one reacting from it....This is a hard point to get over for most, until they start to be able to do it...

Using this one can be behind, with, or ahead of...the wave. behind and ahead of will feel like "force" colliding with the others structure
they will feel it as force...

If one can use and allow the wave to interact with another most will not feel this but will react to the "energy" and will move not understanding
how or why as in the many demos that people often question.

One can interfere with their own timing...if one is unaware of what they'er doing, the why and how it works.
Often in taiji its said that "higher seems higher, lower seems lower" ;)


Some have talked about pushing vs punching...in taiji "push" is a way of training whats called "long force" we also have "short force" "cold jin"
In either case the way and how the "force" produced is the same,,,,only the intent is different.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:09 pm

The explanation of the whip is spot on
Prolonged energy and abrupt are right but cold or cold shaking energy is not the same as short or abrupt energy
Short energy can be taught to someone with good basic coordination but cold energy is another thing
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby dspyrido on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:31 pm

The whip analogy is not a good analogy when discussing peng. It relates to what some term the ballistic strike where the torso flicks and the limb lands (can be applied to all 7 stars).

The problem - the strike does not penetrate deeply because it has no ground line. Whips tear skin & similarly this strike tends to be surface level. Hit a face or exposed solar plexus then great. Hit a guy with their hands up and it just bounces off. Plus it's slow when compared to a simple straight because it requires wind up.

It can have an internal aspect to it via "heavy limb" relaxation which ends with a connection to the core to make it penetrate but no peng.

The Mike Tyson analogy is closer to peng than the whip but still not the same. The arm striking with legs & torso is a great way to generate a shit load of power & is exactly what hours of explosive leg/torso compression generates (exactly the power xylh aims to generate). Hit a guy with thier hands up and it can even knock their block off.

The only "internalish" strike I've seen that boxers struggle to replicate is short power. This relies heavily on fast expansion using the whole body, short ranged, relaxed structure. When it lands there is a direct connection to the ground. The connection is not based on locked large muscles in the lats or thighs but on the alignment of the bones. The impact into a target hits, force is reflected back to the person throwing the strike, passes through, hits the ground & rebounds back. This not done using effort or the mind or chi - it happens because its how physics works when there less resistance.

At a longer range (> 3 inches) you can see good boxers can do a form of it when the step back and launch a jab forward. It's the closer range or even with zero pull back that is tricky.

A further refinement is when it is delivered from the core (dantien). I have felt it done at zero distance and no pull back. They did an amazing job of hurting me from zero range. Instead of the power going into the ground line I am guessing they produced the same effect of the action reaction into the dantien and back and did this with a downward strike. Again guessing it is the result of excellent internal musculature control vs the use of the large muscle groups which only comes from a lot of awareness building and related conditioning.

That said all this is useless without timing and positioning which only comes from honed reflexes (lots of sparring) based on a strategy that takes into consdieration how this can be applied.
Last edited by dspyrido on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:45 pm

Nice post. You've explained that this is not done using the mind or qi and yet use the word dantien.

In your view what is this, how was it used​?
Not really concerned what is correct or not just wondered in your view what you feel it is, how it comes into play.

The whip analogy is okay as it allows one to visually see how a wave is generated used and expressed.

Very much agree with the ideas about what type of power that one can generate dictates, strategies used delivery, and application.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby dspyrido on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:32 pm

When people talk about dantien they have different perspectives of the term. Yes there's the TCM & neigong perspectives but these mean very little when a fist is heading to my face.

From a martial perspective I've seen the relevance of the lower dantien and how it relates to connecting the extremities - hands to the feet (and head).

At the simplest level it is the engagement of deeper musculature below the visible muscles combined with alignment when pressure is applied on them to pass the force through.

Example:
I am standing on a scale. I extend my hand so the palm faces forward. Push into my palm. If I lock up the back muscles I am uprooted - the scale registers I am lighter. Relax the large muscles & rely on alignment & the scale registers an increase.

At the more complex level is the ability to apply the deep musculature to do angles that don't get a ground line into the feet.

Example:
Outstretch a hand again and push downwards on the wrist. The scale probably won't register an difference if I can't hold the arm up. Try holding this up as the pressure builds but without the "dantien" it will be really easy to move someone around and lower the arm. Learn to use the dantien and over time a lot more pressure is required to create movement and again the weight translates into the feet.

I've outlined it's use for inbound power but not it's use to express power. This is a different area but I think this explains what I have mentioned.

How it applied? Fist comes to face - stick limb in front of fist & use structure to deflect. Far faster when defending, helps parrying greatly & uses little motion. The big assumption is around getting that limb in the way.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:43 am

Interesting perspective
Yes there's the TCM & neigong perspectives but these mean very little when a fist is heading to my face.


Always the case takes time to integrate everything.

Thanks...

In reading your explanation it seems confused between "pung/peng" with your idea of "dantien"
I may be confused in reading it. happens ;)

please note, while I don't explain things in the same way
it works for you.

In my practice if i want to express more pung jin, I become more straighter, and spherical
any and all points can express this. Statically creates an expanding "energy" when outer and inner forces are balanced think "boundary layer"

Dynamically this is used to understand and keep all points balanced at a what I call a zero point.

Their is no sense of a localized force felt, by the person expressing this.
The one trying to apply their force it never reaches the ground, in most cases they will lose their own sense of ground contact and end up
floating being pushed away by their own force.

What this means is that any point touched or force applied, is dealt with at the contact point as the yin/yang forces are
zeroed out enabling one to add, subtract, or neutralized the applied forces. This means the other person has to deal with their own force
plus an added "energy" to their force.


thanks for your explanation
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:03 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby everything on Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:18 am

ww - really enjoyed all your posts on the topic. that is all.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:54 am

windwalker wrote:Dynamically this is used to understand and keep all points balanced at a what I call a zero point.

Their is no sense of a localized force felt, by the person expressing this.
The one trying to apply their force it never reaches the ground, in most cases they will lose their own sense of ground contact and end up
floating being pushed away by their own force.

What this means is that any point touched or force applied, is dealt with at the contact point as the yin/yang forces are
zeroed out enabling one to add, subtract, or neutralized the applied forces. This means the other person has to deal with their own force
plus an added "energy" to their force.


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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby dspyrido on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:18 pm

windwalker wrote:In my practice if i want to express more pung jin, I become more straighter, and spherical any and all points can express this. Statically creates an expanding "energy" when outer and inner forces are balanced think "boundary layer"

Dynamically this is used to understand and keep all points balanced at a what I call a zero point.

Their is no sense of a localized force felt, by the person expressing this.
The one trying to apply their force it never reaches the ground, in most cases they will lose their own sense of ground contact and end up floating being pushed away by their own force.


Isn't this another way of saying ... 4 ounces, take the balance & to lead into the void? Put another way:

A strike comes in so make very light contact (4 ounces analogy) to connect, let the strike follow it's course while guiding it away into a direction that with a bit of a effort can unbalance them. When they are unbalanced or an arm is over extended then it's easy to apply a bit of force on the limb to snap it.

If it's not then I guess it's a comms problem over the internet.

If it is then how does this sort of thinking translate to a person who is very stable, throws very quick strikes that might land on the legs, torso, arms or head. I mention this because 99% of the time this concept is demonstrated on sloppy single motion punches and almost all arguments about it's use are that this can be applied at any point because at that point usually draw on an analogy of a balloon or ball. That is until the attacker picks them up by the legs....
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:31 pm

If it is then how does this sort of thinking translate to a person who is very stable, throws very quick strikes that might land on the legs, torso, arms or head. I mention this because 99% of the time this concept is demonstrated on sloppy single motion punches and almost all arguments about it's use are that this can be applied at any point because at that point usually draw on an analogy of a balloon or ball.


Great question, tricky problem; but, then again, it doesn't just apply to tcma or tcc. In this thread (?), someone has already said that Machida uses karate in the UFC. Though, of course, the old PKA (pro karate association) was how the term "kickboxing" came into being. And, the ability to deal with quick punches was present even in light-contact karate.

But, the issue of a tcc person (for eg.) facing a boxer who jabs is interesting from a practical perspective. However, ime, lots of assumptions make the question more complex. For eg., how many tcc practitioners would be able to stick and follow a boxer's "1,2,3,4,5" combo? Then again, how many tcc practitioners will ever face a trained boxer? Only sure answer is "the ones who choose to compete against boxers." Those who do will inevitably develop the techniques required for that sport. If, otoh, they want to compete against wrestlers (and single and double leg shoots), they will have to adjust their skillsets. In either case, the complaint will be that they aren't practicing tcma or that what they're doing doesn't look like tcma (tcc especially).

So, when it comes to videos, there are plenty of them with people who practice tcc going up against boxers, kickboxers and others.. The problem is that there are always those who'll that they weren't doing tcc. Anyway, a thread about the techniques that tcc people use and have used against boxers would probably be helpful.
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