Examples of Peng Jin

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby everything on Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:26 pm

No I am saying the volley is different than, say, a forehand. There isn't some kind of monolithic "athletic" movement as some people seem to think.

That said, I agree with you about the wave comment. If you've encountered "internal" force, it feels like something else entirely. I don't know what it feels like to issue such force.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:54 am

I don't think good tennis or soccer players have peng jin. The type of connection is different. In taiji connection is global, one part of the body moves, the whole body moves; tennis players don't have that. In tennis players the connection is local and it is an add on to muscular strength. There are degrees of relaxation.


True internal movements, based on what I've seen and been taught, are abnormal and counter-intuitive to the ways that normal people (including athletes) move. They are also very specialized and style-specific.


In the tennis videos the guys are clearly using shoulder, elbow, and wrist. In the first two videos they say as much, something about the sum of the parts. In the last video what they say sounds good, about the energy traveling thru the arm, but if you watch what they do, they are using the arm to generate some power. It's clearly external. If you think about the tennis racket it doesn't add much power, maybe some elasticity from the webbing, but for the most part it just tansfers force. That's what the arms should be doing in IMAs.


Interesting discussion...

If "force=mass+acceleration", then one logical thing to do in order to create some good force in a punch (or any kind of attack), would be to establish a direct connection between the center of the mass and the point of contact with the opponent. The you need to understand how to coordinate the body movement as well as get rid of anything that disturbs the limbs from transferring the force.

everything wrote:That said, I agree with you about the wave comment. If you've encountered "internal" force, it feels like something else entirely. I don't know what it feels like to issue such force.


Sometimes when you strike in IMA, for the reciever the force feels like two separate waves of impact. Sometimes it feels like there's a spiraling movement inside of the impact, sometimes they feel separated as one wave after another. This is an interesting phenomenon. IMO, this might have to do with that the perfectly relaxed and connected limb offer no resistance for the kinetic energy. What the reciever feels is both the impact of the body (mostly the hand/fist) and then also the kinetic movement itself.

IME, when you manage to issue this kind of force, the more the reciever feels, the less the issuer feels. It feels as you did almost nothing at all, as there is nothing in the body that stop or limit the transferring of the force from the center of own's own body into the reciever. So you won't feel anything of the force or of the transmission itself.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:16 am

IMO, this might have to do with that the perfectly relaxed and connected limb offer no resistance for the kinetic energy. What the reciever feels is both the impact of the body (mostly the hand/fist) and then also the kinetic movement itself.


If there is no resistance to the "kinetic energy" why would a receiver feel the impact from a localized source ie.
"hand/fist" and then from "the movement itself"

IME, when you manage to issue this kind of force, the more the reciever feels, the less the issuer feels. It feels as you did almost nothing at all, as there is nothing in the body that stop or limit the transferring of the force from the center of own's own body into the reciever. So you won't feel anything of the force or of the transmission itself.


IME the receiver, will also not feel anything and yet be moved.
I would say what the issuer feels or not depends on whether he is ahead of or behind the "energy" being transported by what I would call a wave.
All reactions by the receiver are from the bodies interaction in trying to reestablish its equilibrium from what it feels....either falling down or hoping up
trying not to fall.

Since its obviously not a kinetic force by a solid medium, most will and do question why people react the way they do.
It becomes hard to believe for most watching.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby everything on Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:32 am

I've felt that kind of push (receiving) as well and yup, to everyone else it is not believable. You don't feel anything except that your body is moving. If you haven't felt it, typically you don't believe it or have no basis to talk about it. So then we talk about other normal mechanical things like swings of equipment.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby marvin8 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:58 am

It seems more probable to me with absorb, then peng.

From INTERNAL VS. EXTERNAL What Sets Them Apart? by Tim Cartmell, http://www.shenwu.com/Internal_VS_External.htm:
Tai Ji Quan
In the first passage of the Tai Ji Classics, Jang San Peng (the legendary founder of Tai Ji Quan) states that the body must be light and agile, and that it must be connected throughout (gwan chwan). This is the basis of Tai Ji Quan as a martial art. The most basic energy of this art is the ward off energy (peng jing). Ills energy is the same as using the body as a unit. As the masters say, "No peng jing, no martial art." The reference here is not to the actual technique of ward off from the forms, but rather to the ward off energy that must permeate the whole body connecting it with unified power, from which all subsequent variations in power are based.

The basic postural requirements for Tai Ji Quan practice (head floating up, shoulders sunk, chest lifted) are the physical prerequisites of unified body power. As in the other internal styles, the student begins by standing in static postures for a considerable length of time to cultivate the body's peng jing body before singular postures are practiced and mastered one at a time. Single technique practice (dan ba lian) and issuing power (fa Jing) are practiced until all the various postures of Tai Ji Quan can be executed with whole body power. Finally, the student is taught to link the postures into a continuous sequence that trains sensitivity to postural changes (listening energy or tingjing) and the ability to flow from one technique to the next without disconnecting the body. One of the fundamental reasons most Tai Ji Quan forms are practiced slowly is 'so the student can constantly adjust and monitor the body to make sure it is always moving in a unit. This is much easier to feel moving slowly than quickly.

Eventually, the student develops the body into a strong, supple unit which allows the frame to act as a spring against the ground (jyc di jr Ii), enabling the boxer to absorb incoming energy and rebound it into the opponent. This type of power is impossible unless the body is always maintained in a unit, just as a spring is one continuous thread of steel.

Published on Jan 2, 2017
In this Tai Chi video we will share with you how to absorb and discharge in your Tai Chi form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2ni1D2mFos

Peng jin in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNGQRPeFBEE
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Subitai on Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:33 pm

marvin8 wrote:It seems more probable to me with absorb, then peng.

From INTERNAL VS. EXTERNAL What Sets Them Apart? by Tim Cartmell, http://www.shenwu.com/Internal_VS_External.htm:
Tai Ji Quan
In the first passage of the Tai Ji Classics, Jang San Peng (the legendary founder of Tai Ji Quan) states that the body must be light and agile, and that it must be connected throughout (gwan chwan). This is the basis of Tai Ji Quan as a martial art. The most basic energy of this art is the ward off energy (peng jing). Ills energy is the same as using the body as a unit. As the masters say, "No peng jing, no martial art." The reference here is not to the actual technique of ward off from the forms, but rather to the ward off energy that must permeate the whole body connecting it with unified power, from which all subsequent variations in power are based.

The basic postural requirements for Tai Ji Quan practice (head floating up, shoulders sunk, chest lifted) are the physical prerequisites of unified body power. As in the other internal styles, the student begins by standing in static postures for a considerable length of time to cultivate the body's peng jing body before singular postures are practiced and mastered one at a time. Single technique practice (dan ba lian) and issuing power (fa Jing) are practiced until all the various postures of Tai Ji Quan can be executed with whole body power. Finally, the student is taught to link the postures into a continuous sequence that trains sensitivity to postural changes (listening energy or tingjing) and the ability to flow from one technique to the next without disconnecting the body. One of the fundamental reasons most Tai Ji Quan forms are practiced slowly is 'so the student can constantly adjust and monitor the body to make sure it is always moving in a unit. This is much easier to feel moving slowly than quickly.

Eventually, the student develops the body into a strong, supple unit which allows the frame to act as a spring against the ground (jyc di jr Ii), enabling the boxer to absorb incoming energy and rebound it into the opponent. This type of power is impossible unless the body is always maintained in a unit, just as a spring is one continuous thread of steel.

Published on Jan 2, 2017
In this Tai Chi video we will share with you how to absorb and discharge in your Tai Chi form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2ni1D2mFos



Not having read the entire thread...i'm sure it's been mentioned to describe Peng as a ball in the water. I.e. the buoyancy of the ball (coming back at you) when you try to submerge it and also it's ability to spin freely. One side of the ball connected to the other or similar to a revolving door. That's part of it too.

side question: after viewing Bk Frantzis doing ji or press in his video, for example at about 59 sec. I was wondering how many of you view his forward stance as being 1) a bit wide or 2) you think the width of his feet is spot on?

Just curious, I know he's kind of a big guy so he may have space allotment but I assume he wouldn't stand that wide if he were skinny?
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:00 pm

I just see his whole structure as weak especially from a Wu perspectives
What is saying is worse
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:00 pm

windwalker wrote:
IMO, this might have to do with that the perfectly relaxed and connected limb offer no resistance for the kinetic energy. What the reciever feels is both the impact of the body (mostly the hand/fist) and then also the kinetic movement itself.


If there is no resistance to the "kinetic energy" why would a receiver feel the impact from a localized source ie.
"hand/fist" and then from "the movement itself"]


If you have felt a good tai chi practitioner's strike, you have surely felt that the energy and quality feels different. I don't like speaking about qi and believe that we can trace the feeling by examining the quality of physical movement.

IME, when you manage to issue this kind of force, the more the reciever feels, the less the issuer feels. It feels as you did almost nothing at all, as there is nothing in the body that stop or limit the transferring of the force from the center of own's own body into the reciever. So you won't feel anything of the force or of the transmission itself.


IME the receiver, will also not feel anything and yet be moved.
I would say what the issuer feels or not depends on whether he is ahead of or behind the "energy" being transported by what I would call a wave.
All reactions by the receiver are from the bodies interaction in trying to reestablish its equilibrium from what it feels....either falling down or hoping up
trying not to fall.

Since its obviously not a kinetic force by a solid medium, most will and do question why people react the way they do.
It becomes hard to believe for most watching.
I

My example was from striking. If the opponent doesn't feel anything it means that you punch like a wimp. :)

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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:09 pm

everything wrote:I've felt that kind of push (receiving) as well and yup, to everyone else it is not believable. You don't feel anything except that your body is moving. If you haven't felt it, typically you don't believe it or have no basis to talk about it. So then we talk about other normal mechanical things like swings of equipment.


Again, I don't speak about pushing. I spoke about striking, something with a bit martial value. I am not interested in pushing. But speaking about pushing, there are different kinds of quality into pushing. You can make it light so that the opponent doesn't feel anything. Some people though prefer to make pushes more or less like two Palm strikes. Those pushes feels a lot, they can be pretty painful. Uprooting and unbalancing that the opponent doesn't feel is good when you unbalance for a throw or a take down. If you just "push", why not make a statement? :P
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:43 pm

Push that has good structure is a double palm strike when delivered with speed
Every move in the form that has good structure is a strike when speed is applied
I can't see how anyone can think otherwise
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby wuwei sifu on Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:52 pm

everything wrote:You might be right. But there is quite a lot of whole body connection to do these volleys correctly. Certainly the whole body moves and coordinates together. Probably much more so in the soccer volley. It's a very difficult technique and if you muscle it using "li" as happens at times, it goes all wrong. It's hard to say it could be any kind of force but peng jin, even though the concept does not exist in the sport. Athletes usually produce more well trained force than MA hobbyists/nerds. Soccer players use kao, split, pull down, ward off (peng in the arm), elbow, push, rollback pretty much all the time in the incidental grappling contests happening around the ball and in corner kicks.

Would be interesting to hear from the tennis players here.


Well, ironically i encourage those who study taijiquan to play table tennis. I've played lawn tennis for many years 6 days a week and table tennis 5-7 days a week for quite a few years. i was at the md. open in towson and i had a custom sweat shirt i made by hand. it depicted the yin-yang symbol and hexagrams on it as well as i think a paddle and a ball spinning. another dude saw the shirt and struck up a conversation with me about taijiquan and table tennis and how one compliments the other naturally. HE WAS ACTUALLY A STUDENT OF THE LEFT HAND STYLE MASTER in silver spring md. i guess now i have to recall who it was. Ok his teacher was TAI YIM http://www.taiyimkungfu.com/System.php

So back on topic. in table tennis all the power usually comes from the legs and goes to the paddle in almost an identical way as in taijiquan. we use the power we get from pressing/screwing into the ground and ending with the blade/power. the coiling of our bodies from feet to legs is almost identical to yang/chen styles when attacking a ball via hitting, but especially when looping or killing/smashing the ball fajin style. all the physical elements are there. to add to those obvious bigger movements these same actions can and are employed with lesser shots to one degree or another for an offensive player.
Bothe my table tennis and my taijiquan improved back then based on each other shared principles.

NOW SO FAR AS PENG IS CONCERNED YOU HAVE TO BE SUNG IN TABLE TENNIS JUST LIKE IN TAIJIQUAN IN ORDER TO BEST EXPRESS POWER/SPEED AS WELL AS MORE SUBTLE ACTIONS ON DEFENSE AND MORE NEUTRAL TRANSITIONS BASED ON HOW U NEED TO RETURN THE BALL. i'VE has ALWAYS been able to relate to both very easily and having a couple of russian coaches made me understand things on a more intimate level then your avg. ping pong player who doesn't have a coach.

Yet, the good ones still did the same things i did even if they weren't so good at explaining it. = a player be it taiji or table tennis/lawn tennis both have to manifest the same type of basics to be considered good . the student who doesn't understand Chinese all that well from his teacher will still get there if his teacher is legit and not jiving him. we all know many traditional Chinese teachers did not explain a lot in terms of technical language. many of us seem to forget that and judge things by modern standards where teachers can go into more oral details. yet we also know the players of the past were better even though they often weren't privy to detailed explanations.

yes, the idea of the body and energy being whole and connected is a peng jing essential. it's the same in many tennis and table tennis shots and they are producing whole body power. i had the fortune of playing a guy who's table tennis smash/kill sounded literally like a fucking explosion. it was awesome to realize. still didn't stop me from whooping him cause he wasn't allowed to hit that shot that much lol. I neutralized his ability to use his slam as well as making him defend against my offensive shots too.

so just the physical aspect of that resilient and expanding force though essential is not all encompassing in peng. i was taught that when we engaged that peng force also acted like a detective to ascertain what is happening and though we usually call this ting jin imho this Ting jing is rooted in peng force which is rooted in sung. take sung out of the equation and peng isn't possible nor ting jin. they are all connected and work in unison as our skills increase we get better at all 3.

as to kai and he vs. expanding and contracting. well, they are related to, but not the same thing. though one could argue they are. we can contract/pull in our energy as well as expand it. which would be like opening it and closing. yet, kai and he are related more to the body's positional aspects and more gross physical movements; whereas expanding and contracting don't have to be so but could be so. u can expand and contract and to most they would not see this happen at all. I OFTEN USE THE IDEA OF EXPANDING and contracting when i turn on or off peng to let a student see how it feels different. btw i'm really actually turning peng on and off in that demo scenario for them. so, on/off = expanding and contracting that i let them feel in my forearms. when i turn it on it becomes alive and they can feel it, when i turn it off they can still feel my arm physically but something is obviously missing = the expansion or air/jin/energy that i make apparent when expanding = actually activating peng force.

after years of thinking, we always had to be full of peng force, i got the idea that we actually do not need to do that all the time. i can't recall what masters i researched that made this idea apparent. I JUST KNoW THAT IN MY MIND IT WAS A WAY TO NOT WASTE AS MUCH ENERGY and to conserve it.

lastly does a tennis or table tennis player have the same springy force as a good taijiquan player, not exactly because their sport does not emphasize the subtle things that we do or to the degree we can. when we are full of peng it is different than others who play typical sports and i'm not trying to say otherwise. just to be clear

as usuall sorry for crappy typing/caps i hope i made myself clear at least i tried lol. peace and hair grease ;D
Last edited by wuwei sifu on Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:35 pm

wayne hansen wrote:... Every move in the form that has good structure is a strike when speed is applied
I can't see how anyone can think otherwise


+1. Yet 95% of all tai chi fight applications videos show how to use "push", not "punch". There are a whole lot of tai chi schools that are more interested on how to practicing how to use a push in a combat situation than striking. Their whole mind set are about pushing. :-\
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Bao on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:27 am

wuwei sifu wrote:NOW SO FAR AS PENG IS CONCERNED YOU HAVE TO BE SUNG IN TABLE TENNIS JUST LIKE IN TAIJIQUAN IN ORDER TO BEST EXPRESS POWER/SPEED AS WELL AS MORE SUBTLE ACTIONS ON DEFENSE AND MORE NEUTRAL TRANSITIONS BASED ON HOW U NEED TO RETURN THE BALL. i'VE has ALWAYS been able to relate to both very easily and having a couple of russian coaches made me understand things on a more intimate level then your avg. ping pong player who doesn't have a coach.

yes, the idea of the body and energy being whole and connected is a peng jing essential. it's the same in many tennis and table tennis shots and they are producing whole body power.


"song"/"sung" is relaxation. I don't know exactly how you mean that peng should be a part of table tennis... But peng should IMO rely more on song and not on actively keeping a certain structural shape, so maybe there's a connection from song to peng somewhere here even in table tennis...

But anyway... many, many activities can benefit from a deeper relaxation and a free body with a clear center. I completely suck in table tennis, so I can't really claim to know how to do it here, but I use the same kind of active "relax-sink-move from center" whenever I can. Sometimes I enjoy pool games and then I always use it. When I was about 15 years old, I already started experimenting with this when I played pinball games. Damn how much my faster my reactions became and also how my focus improved from that movement that I completely relaxed my arms, sank down all tensions and focused on my legs to keep my body upright and connecting my fingers to the dantian by physically expanding this area on every press with my fingers on the buttons. I remember once when I focused on this body method, I played "Creature from the Black Lagoon" for four hours. I had only invested two coins for two games, but I had flow and when I had to leave the arcade, I had credits left for five games that the people around me could share.

I can imagine that this body method could work for many, many different sports and activities. Most dances use active training to practice similar body methods. But the thing is, while people can say that great athletes in this and this field use IMA principles, there are still very seldom any generally practiced methods to develop these or similar body methods. The methods used in IMA, yes, they are indeed somewhat counter-intuitive, so if you don't have someone to teach a structured learning, how to do or apply it in action, remind you, nagging about how badly you move etc, you have a very little chance to develop this kind of body method all by yourself. You can if you are smart and lucky, but it will certainly take a much longer time if you don't have a structured practice.

So yes, there might be IMA principles used here and there. But very few sports have an organised training method to develop these body qualities. Instead of having an IMA structured body method training, many sports borrow from other sports and different physical activities. Many women who practice figure skating and ice dance practice ballroom dance to learn a better posture. Some of the schools even want their girls to learn... can you guess what? ... yeah, that's right: Tai Chi Chuan. This is exactly how Tiffany Chen rediscovered her fathers Tai Chi and Kung Fu. She practiced figure skating and her teacher wanted them to learn Tai Chi.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:20 am

Bao wrote:
I don't think good tennis or soccer players have peng jin. The type of connection is different. In taiji connection is global, one part of the body moves, the whole body moves; tennis players don't have that. In tennis players the connection is local and it is an add on to muscular strength. There are degrees of relaxation.


True internal movements, based on what I've seen and been taught, are abnormal and counter-intuitive to the ways that normal people (including athletes) move. They are also very specialized and style-specific.


In the tennis videos the guys are clearly using shoulder, elbow, and wrist. In the first two videos they say as much, something about the sum of the parts. In the last video what they say sounds good, about the energy traveling thru the arm, but if you watch what they do, they are using the arm to generate some power. It's clearly external. If you think about the tennis racket it doesn't add much power, maybe some elasticity from the webbing, but for the most part it just tansfers force. That's what the arms should be doing in IMAs.


Interesting discussion...

If "force=mass+acceleration", then one logical thing to do in order to create some good force in a punch (or any kind of attack), would be to establish a direct connection between the center of the mass and the point of contact with the opponent. The you need to understand how to coordinate the body movement as well as get rid of anything that disturbs the limbs from transferring the force.

everything wrote:That said, I agree with you about the wave comment. If you've encountered "internal" force, it feels like something else entirely. I don't know what it feels like to issue such force.


Sometimes when you strike in IMA, for the reciever the force feels like two separate waves of impact. Sometimes it feels like there's a spiraling movement inside of the impact, sometimes they feel separated as one wave after another. This is an interesting phenomenon. IMO, this might have to do with that the perfectly relaxed and connected limb offer no resistance for the kinetic energy. What the reciever feels is both the impact of the body (mostly the hand/fist) and then also the kinetic movement itself.

IME, when you manage to issue this kind of force, the more the reciever feels, the less the issuer feels. It feels as you did almost nothing at all, as there is nothing in the body that stop or limit the transferring of the force from the center of own's own body into the reciever. So you won't feel anything of the force or of the transmission itself.

I was once demonstrated on a "taiji" punch by a well renown taijiquan teacher( i have no Idea about his name?)in Beijing. He said he said he was to go easy, his hand was about two inches from my stomach, and seemingly light and effortless he struck, there was a subtle but detectable one two feeling on impact but the uncomfortable feeling was in my spine which was painful for about two weeks after. I have no idea if i myself can delgiver this kind of punch even now after about 25 years of tjq practice, i have no intention to try to find out, in practice push is good enough for me.
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Re: Examples of Peng Jin

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:54 am

Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:... Every move in the form that has good structure is a strike when speed is applied
I can't see how anyone can think otherwise


+1. Yet 95% of all tai chi fight applications videos show how to use "push", not "punch". There are a whole lot of tai chi schools that are more interested on how to practicing how to use a push in a combat situation than striking. Their whole mind set are about pushing. :-\

If practice applications of for example the movement in a tjq form, throws,joint locks and occasionally pushes would probably be the safest but yet realistic way to that practice, where and when to punch/strike in that activity wouldn't be to difficult to figure out. Now i don't practice this myself, but i figure if one would like to sharpen ones skill of trading punches, the best and safest way would probably be putting on gloves and a mouthpiece and spar.......Just so i stay at least a little on topic, the above activities should contain Peng Jin....maybe.
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