United airlines defences

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United airlines defences

Postby GrahamB on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:41 pm

It wasn't assault - it was a marketing opportunity!!!

https://youtu.be/wq3OjQexeUA
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:07 am

Oh, I thought it was a vid on how UA defended their actions.

I don't think they will do anything similar again as it was completely illegal. There is absolutely nothing that supports their action. But I think I'll study that vid properly if I am going to travel anywhere within the US. Just in case.... :P
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:12 am

Bao wrote:Oh, I thought it was a vid on how UA defended their actions.

I don't think they will do anything similar again as it was completely illegal. There is absolutely nothing that supports their action. But I think I'll study that vid properly if I am going to travel anywhere within the US. Just in case.... :P


can you explain the illegality of it and what does not support the actions.
yes all should make themselves aware of the "law" by reading the contract they agree to by buying the ticket.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:48 am

windwalker wrote:
Bao wrote:Oh, I thought it was a vid on how UA defended their actions.

I don't think they will do anything similar again as it was completely illegal. There is absolutely nothing that supports their action. But I think I'll study that vid properly if I am going to travel anywhere within the US. Just in case.... :P


can you explain the illegality of it and what does not support the actions.
yes all should make themselves aware of the "law" by reading the contract they agree to by buying the ticket.


It had absolutely nothing to do with overbooking as they claimed. If the plane is over booked, passengers are placed on hold already at check-in and certainly not allowed to go into the plane. Who gets the seat doesn't matter, when a plane is over booked, they play a certain amount of people on hold until they know if everyone will show up or not. They never enter the airplane. Crew members, people working for the company and travel agency people's special tickets are all booked in special classes (There are usually a total of between 10-20 classes used on one and the same flight) One person booked in one class can not replace another one in another class, regardless over-booking, over-selling or whatever. A crew member or company person can never replace a seat that is occupied by a common travelled, not before and not after check-in. This is all IATA booking regulations, it works the same for every single company in the world.

I don't know about American Law very well, but I have worked in different travel agencies for a total of more than seven years, so I know the international restrictions very well. And without even understanding US Law, it's embarrassingly apparent that what they did is completely way off line. This from someone calling himself a lawyer in social media might explain it better than me. He doesn't quite understand what overbooking means, or what the difference between over-selling and over-booking is. But he sums it up better than me:

Lawyer here. This myth that passengers don't have rights needs to go away, ASAP. You are dead wrong when saying that United legally kicked him off the plane.

1. First of all, it's airline spin to call this an overbooking. The statutory provision granting them the ability to deny boarding is about "OVERSELLING", which is specifically defined as booking more reserved confirmed seats than there are available. This is not what happened. They did not overbook the flight; they had a fully booked flight, and not only did everyone already have a reserved confirmed seat, they were all sitting in them. The law allowing them to deny boarding in the event of an oversale does not apply.

2. Even if it did apply, the law is unambiguously clear that airlines have to give preference to everyone with reserved confirmed seats when choosing to involuntarily deny boarding. They have to always choose the solution that will affect the least amount of reserved confirmed seats. This rule is straightforward, and United makes very clear in their own contract of carriage that employees of their own or of other carriers may be denied boarding without compensation because they do not have reserved confirmed seats. On its face, it's clear that what they did was illegal-- they gave preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, in violation of 14 CFR 250.2a.

3. Furthermore, even if you try and twist this into a legal application of 250.2a and say that United had the right to deny him boarding in the event of an overbooking; they did NOT have the right to kick him off the plane. Their contract of carriage highlights there is a complete difference in rights after you've boarded and sat on the plane, and Rule 21 goes over the specific scenarios where you could get kicked off. NONE of them apply here. He did absolutely nothing wrong and shouldn't have been targeted. He's going to leave with a hefty settlement after this fiasco.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:04 am

I understood the flight was booked full all seats taken.

Federal regulations do not prevent carriers from selling more seats than a flight can accommodate, a practice the airline industry says allows carriers to try to fill planes despite the number of no-shows that they can expect on any given flight.

Typically, airlines will ask for volunteers on oversold flights, promising some sort of compensation in return for taking a different flight. If few volunteer, carriers typically will keep increasing their offers until enough fliers agree to take another flight.

If not enough volunteers are found, the airline has the power to decide who gets “bumped” off the flight, though that typically happens before boarding.


United warns of the potential to deny boarding for an oversold flight even if a passenger doesn't want to leave. The Sunday flight that caused outrage worldwide wasn't oversold. However, it was sold out and United said it needed four seats for crew members to reach their next flights.


He wasn't targeted,,,he was selected.
He refused to comply with the request to leave in a accordance with the contract he signed and agreed to.
The air port security was called in to remove him when he refused to leave as requested,
he was asked again to remove himself and failed to comply and was removed.

what more would one ask for?

If he refused and you were sitting next to him, and they than said ok,,,you need to give up your seat what would you do?

Read the contract, understand what your signing

I would wager he does not get anything should it go to court.
What would be the charges against United?
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:11 am

What right did they have according to what he signed? .???
Last edited by Bao on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:14 am

So why can't a passenger simply refuse to leave, as the man in the video did? (He reportedly told the crew he was a doctor and he too needed to be at his destination the following morning for work.)

Well, at that point the airline had another legal weapon: Any action or behavior that is judged to be "interfering with the flight crew" is against the law. "Interfering" is vague and can cover a broad range of passenger behavior, and can encompass almost anything that makes the flight crew feel uncomfortable.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/ ... er-rights/

What if the same guy, wants to open the door once the plane is in flight what would you say?
Seems this guy as problems following and understanding rules,,,
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:16 am

Bao wrote:What right did they have according to what he signed? .???


"If you're still in the terminal waiting to board, you can be told you can't board, even if you have a reservation, even if you have a ticket. And once you're on board, you are subject to being deplaned based on the order of the crew. So you don't really have any rights,"


You mean like not complying with a request of an airline flight crew,,,is that what your asking?
I would suggest finding a better lawyer, or someone who understands air line ticketing contracts
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:54 am

Bao wrote:Oh, I thought it was a vid on how UA defended their actions.

I don't think they will do anything similar again as it was completely illegal. There is absolutely nothing that supports their action. But I think I'll study that vid properly if I am going to travel anywhere within the US. Just in case.... :P


strange lets review

At first, the airline asked for volunteers and offering $400 per seat. When that didn’t work, they offered $800 per passenger. When no one voluntarily came forward, United selected four passengers at random.

“If there are no takers, you should be aware that it’s lottery time and your number can come up,” said Weinstein.

Three deplaned but the fourth, a man who said he was a doctor and needed to get home to treat patients on Monday, refused.

Three men, identified later as city aviation department security officers, got on the plane. Two officers tried to reason with the man before a third came aboard and pointed at the man “basically saying, ‘Sir, you have to get off the plane,'” said Tyler Bridges, a passenger whose wife, Audra D. Bridges, posted a video on Facebook.

One of the security officers grabbed the screaming man from his window seat, across the armrest and dragging him down the aisle by his arms.

United Airlines’ parent company CEO Oscar Munoz late Monday issued a letter defending his employees, saying the passenger was being “disruptive and belligerent.


true

Weinstein said the airport police were well within their right to remove the passenger. The question now centers on how it was done and the amount of force used. Passengers say there was an easier way to get the same results with out all the attention.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2017/04/11/pa ... passenger/

If the guy would not follow a request as directed, he becomes and was a safety issue for the crew and passengers
he could do anything feeling he had the "right" to do so.

In fact there was nothing illegal in what UA requested
UA did not remove the man from the plane, the airport police did
how and what they did would be in accordance with their procedures
and will be looked into as to whether they followed them or not.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:10 am

So, it's legal to be assaulted if you're on a plane in the US by security staff.

GO USA! FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMM!
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:03 am

GrahamB wrote:So, it's legal to be assaulted if you're on a plane in the US by security staff.

GO USA! FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMM!



"Police officers and court officials have a general power to use force for the purpose of performing an arrest or generally carrying out their official duties. Thus, a court officer taking possession of goods under a court order may use force if reasonably necessary"

I would be surprised if the man is not charged for resisting the officers, of course this probably won't make the news.

You do understand what the rule of law means versus the rule of man.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:34 am

It's sad that some people will always, no matter what, defend authoritarian overreach.

Bao is right: they were not overbooked. They wanted to slip in their own crew in the place of paying customers. Overbooked would have been if they had too many paying customers, which is not what happened.

It is illegal to remove people from the plane like that once they have boarded. You have to stop them at the gate. It does get a little weird because the guy ran back onto the plane, but this was a clear case of police brutality. Too bad the plane didn't revolt and defend their fellow traveler. At a time when we are witnessing a massive rollback of police oversight, there is no hope for freedom and liberty unless we start to fight for it. Not surprising that Airport cops would act like this. They are the bottom of an already rotten barrel of apples.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby chud on Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:36 am

What's ironic is the doctor was selected by computer.
So law enforcement committing police brutality at the direction of a computer.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:40 am

Ian C. Kuzushi"

It is illegal to remove people from the plane like that once they have boarded.

Keep saying that, sounds better if one can prove it.
Prove that it was illegal.
Why not ask why the man did not follow the laws that he agreed too by buying the ticket.
Were does his responsibility come into play, or is he not responsible for the result of his own actions.

there is no hope for freedom and liberty unless we start to fight for it. Not surprising that Airport cops would act like this.
They are the bottom of an already rotten barrel of apples


lets hope you never have to call on any of those "rotten apples" to protect you
from the other apples in the barrel with you..

another rule of man vs rule of law....

Just where do the freedoms you feel you have come from?

What freedoms or liberties did this man lose or were violated when he refused to
abide by what he agreed to...and then did not....

If a flight crew asked you to leave and you did not leave, would you leave or not.

In 2 or 3 days time this will be over on the news cycle,
the man if is lucky will not be charged for anything.
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Re: United airlines defences

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:41 am

This is a much better version of the Gracie video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9cMNOl9e7E

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