Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

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Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Franklin on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:07 am

just saw this online



the bian bu changes from sun style bagua -- tainan taiwan

I don't know who this teacher is--
but would guess he is a student of zhang shirong
(and therefore a kung fu brother of my teacher)

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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Fa Xing on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:14 pm

I'm curious, as a student of Tim Cartmell, we do Sun style handed down by Sun Jianyun and fam. What is your lineage? Where and when did the person this lineage came from, study with Sun Lutang? How long did they study with Sun? I'm always trying to find out more about Sun style lineages outside of Sun Jianyun because often what they do looks very little like what the Sun family actually does, with a few exceptions of course.
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:42 pm

From the way the two on the right are looking at the teacher I would say they are just learning these moves
Now that you bring it up I would be interested to know the same about your lineage
How long mr Cartmell trained with sun face to face and what he learned of the system
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Franklin on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:05 pm

Zheng Huai-Xian was an early student of Sun Lutang and a disciple

2 of his students moved to taiwan
He Shun Ding taught in taipei
and Zhang Shi Rong taught in tainan

my teacher was a student of Zhang Shi Rong

we have a pretty complete system of bagua from Sun

single change
double change
8 animals ding bu practice
8 animals bian bu practice
hou bu changes for single and double palm change
and then free-form practice

everything past the dingbu stage of practice is considered closed door and usually not shown at all


i read somewhere that sun's book is only basic material
and that sun rarely stayed in the same place very long- so many students did not get to learn from him long term
(hence- many people only show the material that is in his book)

hard to tell what people learned- as I said-- past the ding bu stage is closed door material--
so you can't really tell if people learned it or not-- if they don't show it...

I did see video of Sun's daughter doing some freeform practice
and it comes right from the bian bu practice
so I am pretty sure she learned this from her father
(I have no idea if she taught it and to who?)

you can see a bit of her free form practice at the end of this video

(this is not the video i was thinking of though-- the one i had seen before was much clearer in that I could recognize the moves from which bian bu change)


i posted this one before:

He Shun Ding and students show their ding bu palms
and then at the end they demo the bian bu changes



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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby taiwandeutscher on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:37 pm

姚正三老師 台南孔廟, ( 張世榮傳 )
Yao Zhensan, yes, in the tradition of Zhang Shirong. Tainan, Konfucius Temple
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Fa Xing on Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:05 pm

wayne hansen wrote:How long mr Cartmell trained with sun face to face and what he learned of the system


Long enough to get the complete system.

Thank you for your answer Franklin.
Last edited by Fa Xing on Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:38 pm

Interesting and somewhat evasive answer
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby chud on Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:23 pm

Interesting video, thanks Franklin.
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Bao on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:15 am

Fa Xing wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:How long mr Cartmell trained with sun face to face and what he learned of the system


Long enough to get the complete system.


wayne hansen wrote:Interesting and somewhat evasive answer



To my knowledge Tim didn't learn and doesn't teach the 64 Palms form.

What is the whole system anyway?

Considering how Sun Lutang travelled all of the time I don't believe that Sun Jianyun possibly could have enough time with her father to learn everything that Sun Lutang knew or what he put into his own personal arts. In his later years, Sun Lutang thought that martial arts should only be taught for health and this attitude is what he taught his daughter as well.
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Fa Xing on Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:20 pm

Bao wrote:To my knowledge Tim didn't learn and doesn't teach the 64 Palms form.

What is the whole system anyway?

Considering how Sun Lutang travelled all of the time I don't believe that Sun Jianyun possibly could have enough time with her father to learn everything that Sun Lutang knew or what he put into his own personal arts. In his later years, Sun Lutang thought that martial arts should only be taught for health and this attitude is what he taught his daughter as well.


To my knowledge, and what I have been able to find out by talking to different people, there is no 64 palm form. What information do you base that on that, Bao? If anyone has the complete material, it would have been Sun Jianyun because she would have had the most access to her father as well as her one brother before he lost his eye.

My point is similar, in that Sun Lutang spent very little time in an area to teach and it is not unheard of that students may have spent time with Sun, and then moved on to spend more time with another teacher, acquiring pieces. Let's say you practice those pieces and then may be someone asks you to teach, when they ask who you studied with, you state the more famous person, and viola, you have a system that is attributed to a person that had very little to do with it. It wouldn't be the first time it happened.

Honestly, IMHO, Sun style BGZ and TJQ are "simplified" in form so that one can concentrate on developing the techniques. Many baguazhang systems have an exorbinant amount of material that quite frankly is near impossible to learn in one's lifetime, and that's even more than the case in modern society where most of us cannot be or do not wish to be professional martial artists.
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby nicklinjm on Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:53 am

Don't want to get into the debate about who got more of the system, but think this is a good chance to have a discussion about what exactly the bagua system passed down by Sun Lutang comprises.

Just going by internet sources, it seems Sun style bgz has 10 palms (single change + double change, then 8 other palms), all of which can be practiced as Ding Bu, and then later on there are the changes of these palms (Bian Bu).

Is the 64 palms mentioned by Bao the same as what other people call Chuan Zhang practice (free interlinking of postures learned earlier with lively footwork)?
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Franklin on Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:47 am

regardless of what some people may choose to believe..
about the validity or where it may have come from...
::)


the curriculum that I learned was very cohesive -- every part fit very well with the other parts
in a system that is not extra large - or exorbitant
and offers a step by step teaching structure to
develop the student's body, learn to develop power and proper stepping..
all leading up to a free form expression of the art...


i laid out the curriculum that I learned above - but here it is again:

the bagua is powered with the same body movement and power expression as the xingyi
(in the videos i posted above- no one is really showing this- they are just going through the forms smoothly--
but i have seen video of He ShunDing on youtube where he goes through and talks a bit about the power expression -- the same way that I learned from my teacher)

so we have single leg fa jing
double leg fajing
fajing with no external movement -- but same mechanics as above
and then voice training (sound expression- with the fa jing)

(the single and double leg fajing is learned through the xingyi practice- because it is easier to get-- then we put it in the bagua)

single change
double change
8 animal changes
8 bian bu changes (that explore and teach more applications and movements for each animal)
houbu changes
free form practice

we also have a yang style (three in one) taijiquan that is supposed to come from Sun
its a very "active" style of taiji-- lots of low stances, changing footwork.. same power as listed above..
lots of body movement- both with the kua and yao, and also vertical movement of the spine
and all the moves are done sort of like how they would be applied for real..
but it follows the yang style sequence of form movements...



Franklin


edit-- I would be interested to hear what other people have as their curriculum..
although i am very happy witht he arts past down from my teachers..
i do not claim that we have "THE" stuff...
i think there is probably lots of stuff...
and would be interested in hearing about what other people train and how their curriculum is structured..

thanks
Last edited by Franklin on Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby edededed on Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:14 am

I remember reading that Sun Lutang had written (or partially written) a book on the bagua spear - which was unfortunately lost before publishing (I think Sun Jianyun also said this). I'd be quite interested to see what Sun's bagua spear methods were like, and if any of his students passed it down as well.

There are less reliable sources (in Chinese) that say that he also knew the seven star rod, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if his bagua system had a lot more than the 10 barehand changes and his sword set as per his books.
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Fa Xing on Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:29 am

I actually like the OP's video, the changes are nice and fluid. There is nothing wrong with doing the forms in a particular way, in fact, I've been told Sun Jianyun taught in a manner much like most Cheng styles are taught, fixed-step, linked-step, and then continuous (AKA "swimming dragon") which teaches that spontaneous change within baguazhang that is common especially amongst cheng branches.

Here is a video of Per Nyfelt, a long time student of Sun Jianyun, demo'ing just one way to link the 10 forms together:



The spear book was about bagua spear, I don't know if anyone really learned all of it. For me, when people say Sun must have taught more forms to his closed-door disciples, I cringe thinking the closed-door stuff is probably just the actual details on how to make the material really work, and not because they are doing more "advanced forms."
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Re: Sun style Bagua - Taiwan - Bian Bu Changes

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:10 pm

Fa Xing wrote:To my knowledge, and what I have been able to find out by talking to different people, there is no 64 palm form. What information do you base that on that, Bao?


I don't know much about it, but I have watched at least 3 different people performing it on the tubes.
Better to ask someone who practice it about the authenticity, like Doc Stier:

These Eight Trigram Forms are then followed by the 64 Hexagram Palms Form, which logically combines all of the previous material, while expanding the expression of the simple forms and footwork to a much greater degree of difficulty both athletically and energetically.

http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic. ... 76#p223630

Fa Xing wrote:Honestly, IMHO, Sun style BGZ and TJQ are "simplified" in form so that one can concentrate on developing the techniques. Many baguazhang systems have an exorbinant amount of material that quite frankly is near impossible to learn in one's lifetime, and that's even more than the case in modern society where most of us cannot be or do not wish to be professional martial artists.


Could be so. I believe more that he wanted to create an art that anyone could practice and benefit from it as health practice. The descriptions of applications Sun Jianyun had written in her book on each movement of the tai chi form are also very simple and simplistic so anyone can practice them. Mostly parry and punch variations. There are not one single throw in there, so they are very far away from Tims throwing applications. He seem to have adapted his tai chi apps mainly from other Bagua lineages and Shuaijiao. Nothing wrong with that though, I like his throwing philosophy.

Btw, my Sun style, tai chi and bagua, comes mainly from one of Per's students (who is mainly a long time yang Style practitioner) and from another of Jianyuns former students who lives mostly in Italy. They don't use much throwing, more treat them both as striking arts. For myself, I do not claim to be a Sun stylist, though I enjoy practicing the Tai Chi form. (I rather mix everything up and try to bridge the gaps and differences between styles on the level of principle.)
Last edited by Bao on Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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