the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

The terms long time student and complete system are useless when no actual face to face training time is mentioned or no list of the actual forms and exercises learned
The guy in the clip above has nice articulated hand movements but Shen fa and stepping don't seem strong
This becomes evident when he attempts a turn on the supported leg at about 28 seconds and looses his balance
I think when people make statements about the way a particular art is taught as opposed to this is my interpretation and what I have added they need to verify how much of the art they recived and over what time limit.
Really no one has to supply any information but if claiming connection to noted martial art celebs it would strengthen their case and validate their points

Anybody who's been involved in CMA long enough knows that whenever an old master dies, there will always be people coming out of the woodwork claiming to have either been their secret disciples or indoor students. So having a teacher who comes from a famous lineage is not necessarily a guarantee of high-level skill or -- from the perspective of a student -- quality learning.

Off-topic, but here's an example of Sun's tcc that goes pretty far back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AuGupAIUds

Wang Xikui was one of the few direct disciples of SLT who lived and taught in Shanghai for a long period, he knew all 3 of the Sun arts well (tcc / xyq / bgz) and his bagua was supposed to be particularly good. Think there are still some students / grandstudents of his teaching in Shanghai.

edited

C.J.W. wrote:Anybody who's been involved in CMA long enough knows that whenever an old master dies, there will always be people coming out of the woodwork claiming to have either been their secret disciples or indoor students. So having a teacher who comes from a famous lineage is not necessarily a guarantee of high-level skill or -- from the perspective of a student -- quality learning.

In an age of modern and varied learning techniques/mutimedia and sports science it amazes me that anyone gives a shit about lineage.

If lineage is not important start from scratch and devise your own art

wayne hansen wrote:If lineage is not important start from scratch and devise your own art

If you have already made principle and shenfa your own property I can't really see how creating your own art can be anything like starting from scratch.

Without lineage where does Shen fa and principles come from
When someone with a short background in Shaolin talks about not needing lineage in a thread about ba kua how would he know
You don't have to be a lineage holder but do need to in contact of those within the fold
YouTube is good and is the main reason I am on this site
People here do the searching for me
I am not sayin that someone who learns from YouTube and western sports science can't produce a good outcome that has all the secrets
However I am yet to see it
Even those within the fold quite often miss the point

wayne hansen wrote:Without lineage where does Shen fa and principles come from

IME, different teachers focus on different things. Principles are like puzzle pieces spread all over the place. You need to find them here and there. Where you find them doesn't matter. Inside one lineage or from teachers in different lineages doesn't matter. It's not the lineage that decides if a teacher has the goods or not.

And btw, SLT studied with teachers from different arts and lineages as well.

wayne hansen wrote:Even those within the fold quite often miss the point

True, good point.

Nothing wrong with learning from anyone and picking up things you lack
Dan innosanto calls it attribute training
However a lineage that has good principles and a line of intelligent practicioners make the task of learning easier.

wayne hansen wrote:Without lineage where does Shen fa and principles come from
When someone with a short background in Shaolin talks about not needing lineage in a thread about ba kua how would he know
You don't have to be a lineage holder but do need to in contact of those within the fold
YouTube is good and is the main reason I am on this site
People here do the searching for me
I am not sayin that someone who learns from YouTube and western sports science can't produce a good outcome that has all the secrets
However I am yet to see it
Even those within the fold quite often miss the point

If it alters your opnion you can add many more years experience to that plus other northern styles, being a qualified Tai Chi and Self Defence instructor. Extensive fight experience in Muay Thai and Strike and Grapple (though admittedly I suck at groundwork because I don't much like it). Aside from CMA I also run ultra marathons.

My original statement stands, I have trained with many people of reputable lineages and found a inverse relationship between reputation and skill (and as an aside, an inverse relationship between reputation and how likeable they are as a person as is often the case with online personas on this board). The more laid back 'coach' types I've trained with have been brilliant and researched their arts relentlessly. Using lineage has some use as a measure of someone's skill and character but there is so many better ways to go about becoming a good martial artist.

Of course I totally respect your decision to value lineage in that way, it's not a big moral argument.

You should write your full training on your bio so that you don't confuse people
I never said lineage was a sign of character
Now you have stated your background it gives a whole other meaning to what you said
I thought you were saying all that was needed was modern sport science and what could be picked up from YouTube
Sorry if I misunderstood

wayne hansen wrote:You should write your full training on your bio so that you don't confuse people
I never said lineage was a sign of character
Now you have stated your background it gives a whole other meaning to what you said
I thought you were saying all that was needed was modern sport science and what could be picked up from YouTube
Sorry if I misunderstood

A misunderstanding online, surely not!

Thanks, my fault too, I should update my bio. As with many of these things we're probably not as far off the same page as the written word would make it seem.

Happy Friday!