Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Trip on Fri May 05, 2017 5:27 pm

marvin8 wrote:Boxing has the "shoulder roll." Would you consider this the same as "lu" (rollback) and "ji" (press)?

Would anyone say tai chi's rollback press is a different concept, excluding the power generation, alignment, structure? If different, how would it be used in sparring/competition?

I see boxing and MMA as using similar concepts to IMA (e.g., handling incoming force), in an efficient form (e.g., small, fast movements). Also, the same concepts are trained differently (e.g., push hands vs pad work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xZbdCTDBRc

marvin8 wrote:Here's a boxer that keeps his feet in place, softens his back hip transferring weight to back leg, moving his center offline avoiding the attack, then shifts his weight forward finishing opponent: :)
Image]


Shoulder roll and Rollback are similar but different.

The shoulder roll is sweet.
Especially the way the Mayweather’s use it.
Catching the jab or the right hand that’s on the way in is similar.
It’s great for defense.
And then, quickly countering to make them pay for that miss. Love it!

One difference with rollback is -- defending and attacking the incoming with one motion.
You’re trying to give them a little (or lot) of trouble on the way in and also countering on the way out.

So, on the way in you trouble them by going after the elbow to break it, stress it, etc.
or Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg.
(making the rear foot light or come off the ground).

I'd say mentally you are sorta hunting that punch, you're actively looking to draw it in.
In practice, if they don't throw it, you ward them until they resist so you can draw them out so you can apply rollback motion.

And still leaves me with the counter that makes them pay for the miss.

If I don’t nudge or tug the incoming then it leaves the opponent to continue a forward attack of their choosing.
And you can see the result of that in the 1st video in this thread where the Taiji guy is running from contact.
He also lacks lateral movement, but that’s not your question.

That's a quick answer off the top of my head
cause of course there's nuances to both methods.
Last edited by Trip on Fri May 05, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Strange on Fri May 05, 2017 5:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Jack Ma is a businessman promoting a less than high standard tai chi


i have deep respect for Jack Ma's grit and candour when it comes to business
but in this case, i do not think he knows what he is talking about :)
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Fri May 05, 2017 6:30 pm

choosing fights that you can win is not bullying; it's being smart.


Fair enough. It wasn't bullying; it was a challenge. It's just that the challenge was about fighting, and it was directed specifically at those the challenger claimed couldn't fight. It was false confidence that led the tcc to accept. However, imo, a challenger can't choose the champion or turn down a challenge once he's won.

I understand that some might see Xu as trying to expose fraud. But it's not a strong enough argument for me. It's like Houdini exposing clairvoyants, or atheists trying to expose religion. It's not worth the effort. I think that it's particularly true when it comes to martial arts and fighting. I don't see champion boxers challenging people who do boxercize.

Oh, now afa the excuses made by the tcc guy, that's on him. It's just another example of his ego. He could have said "Wow. You got me. Let's have a rematch." Otoh, I don't think Xu can now refuse to fight whomever some tcc organization decides to send. He can't ask for someone who's only done form and push hands.

Afa the fight, though, wouldn't it have been cool if Xu had let the guy stand back up? :)
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Fri May 05, 2017 6:42 pm

choosing fights that you can win is not bullying; it's being smart.


Fair enough. It wasn't bullying; it was a challenge. It's just that the challenge was about fighting, and it was directed specifically at those the challenger claimed couldn't fight. It was false confidence that led the tcc to accept. However, imo, a challenger can't choose the champion or turn down a challenge once he's won.

I understand that some might see Xu as trying to expose fraud. But it's not a strong enough argument for me. It's like Houdini exposing clairvoyants, or atheists trying to expose religion. It's not worth the effort. I think that it's particularly true when it comes to martial arts and fighting. I don't see champion boxers challenging people who do boxercize.

Oh, now afa the excuses made by the tcc guy, that's on him. It's just another example of his ego. He could have said "Wow. You got me. Let's have a rematch." Otoh, I don't think Xu can now refuse to fight whomever some tcc organization decides to send. He can't ask for someone who's only done form and push hands.

Afa the fight, though, wouldn't it have been cool if Xu had let the guy stand back up? :)
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Strange on Fri May 05, 2017 7:21 pm

Steve,
my understanding is ppl challenge each other all the time.
in sport games like badminton, soccer, football, tennis, etc the pride and competition is no less intense.
when it comes to full contact, no rules fights, i understand things are bound to get personal.

As for Xu's taunts to taiji... it is not the first time it has happened.
Wang Xiangzhai wrote that taiji movements are ineffective and if any taiji master would like to
prove him wrong, he would sweep the path clean and wait with patient respect.

I have also personally heard a master's learning experience:
the teacher of his main style told him to stop his taiji practice, cos it is of no use.

Champion boxers challenge other champion boxers
and if you are like Lei..."create" and name his own taiji AND openly teach studentS
i believe in cma circles, this qualified you to be a champion boxer, or in chinese parlance "Shifu"
you are not "coach", "trainer", "instructor", or any of that kinda stuff
but a Shifu... with qi energy in your meridiens, control of yin and yang in your hands, AND
when you see and touch my student's hands you know where they are at, what are their potential,
what are their limits and how to remove them... a Shifu

there are real Shifu around
if you have seen a real one, and the you see a fake one mucking around
some ppl might get riled up
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Strange on Fri May 05, 2017 7:32 pm

yes, it is a test of skill not bloodsport or gladiator battle.
i dunno where that pummeling your opponent when he is down thingy in MMA comes from
but to me it is very ugly and revolting
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Fri May 05, 2017 7:59 pm

People challenge each other all the time, and have been doing so for a long time. But, pro boxers don't challenge amateurs or tcc sifus, and tcc sifus don't challenge pro boxers. That would be great to see. Tcc needs someone like a Connor McGregor to challenge Floyd Mayweather.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 05, 2017 10:03 pm

Trip wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Boxing has the "shoulder roll." Would you consider this the same as "lu" (rollback) and "ji" (press)?

Would anyone say tai chi's rollback press is a different concept, excluding the power generation, alignment, structure? If different, how would it be used in sparring/competition?

I see boxing and MMA as using similar concepts to IMA (e.g., handling incoming force), in an efficient form (e.g., small, fast movements). Also, the same concepts are trained differently (e.g., push hands vs pad work).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xZbdCTDBRc

marvin8 wrote:Here's a boxer that keeps his feet in place, softens his back hip transferring weight to back leg, moving his center offline avoiding the attack, then shifts his weight forward finishing opponent: :)
Image

Shoulder roll and Rollback are similar but different.

The shoulder roll is sweet.
Especially the way the Mayweather’s use it.
Catching the jab or the right hand that’s on the way in is similar.
It’s great for defense.
And then, quickly countering to make them pay for that miss. Love it!

One difference with rollback is -- defending and attacking the incoming with one motion.
You’re trying to give them a little (or lot) of trouble on the way in and also countering on the way out.

So, on the way in you trouble them by going after the elbow to break it, stress it, etc.
or Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg.
(making the rear foot light or come off the ground).

I'd say mentally you are sorta hunting that punch, you're actively looking to draw it in.
In practice, if they don't throw it, you ward them until they resist so you can draw them out so you can apply rollback motion.

And still leaves me with the counter that makes them pay for the miss.

If I don’t nudge or tug the incoming then it leaves the opponent to continue a forward attack of their choosing.
And you can see the result of that in the 1st video in this thread where the Taiji guy is running from contact.
He also lacks lateral movement, but that’s not your question.

That's a quick answer off the top of my head
cause of course there's nuances to both methods.

The strategy of catching and breaking the elbow is a larger movement. So, I question the time it takes to make that move, against a boxer's punch. AFA uprooting, a decent fighter will not over commit. So, a parry would normally not knock him off balance. In grappling distance, off balancing and joint locking are more probable.

But, yes the goal is to get control of opponent's center, not to box. Boxing is limited in tools, per the rules. At the same time, boxing does have various ways to control their opponent (head control, hand traps, footwork, feints, jabs, etc.). An example of simultaneous defense/offense is slip and punch at the same time. Thanks for the feedback.

The 3 moves of slight lean back, flex hip (changing head position as defense) and upper cut took one second. So, he did change or flow with the opponent's attack, then finished.

Here is a slowed down version of the gif:
Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri May 05, 2017 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Trip on Sat May 06, 2017 12:56 am

marvin8 wrote:But, yes the goal is to get control of opponent's center, not to box. Boxing is limited in tools, per the rules. At the same time, boxing does have various ways to control their opponent (head control, hand traps, footwork, feints, jabs, etc.). An example of simultaneous defense/offense is slip and punch at the same time. Thanks for the feedback.

The 3 moves of slight lean back, flex hip (changing head position as defense) and upper cut took one second. So, he did change or flow with the opponent's attack, then finished.


It seems like you really want to talk about boxing and its advantages
and that you're not really interested in the question you asked.

What’s the difference? [Specifically, the difference between Shoulder roll & Rollback]

marvin8 wrote:Boxing has the "shoulder roll." Would you consider this the same as "lu" (rollback) and "ji" (press)?
Would anyone say tai chi's rollback press is a different...?
[b]If different, how would it be used in sparring/competition?

My answer:
One difference with rollback is -- defending and attacking the incoming with one motion.
You’re trying to give them a little (or lot) of trouble on the way in...


I didn't use the words "catching and breaking."
And, I also offered a few more options in that sentence.
The words I used may not mean much to you, but your choice of words kinda implies two separate motions.
It's a subtle difference.

However, it’s just like anything. You take advantage of what's there.
If you can do, you do.
If you can’t, of course you don’t.

If you can’t throw the right you don’t throw it.
If you’re not in position to do a rear naked choke then you don’t do a rear naked choke.
But if it’s there—then you do.
Last edited by Trip on Sat May 06, 2017 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby marvin8 on Sat May 06, 2017 2:52 am

Trip wrote: It seems like you really want to talk about boxing and its advantages
and that you're not really interested in the question you asked.

No. I want to get anyone's opinion on using tai chi's rollback and press, in relation to the few second gif I posted. I think your first post was well written. I felt I understood and thought I touched upon some of the points you made.

Trip wrote:I didn't use the words "catching and breaking."

You used the words "catching" and "break" here:
Trip wrote:Catching the jab or the right hand that’s on the way in is similar.
It’s great for defense.
And then, quickly countering to make them pay for that miss. Love it!
Trip wrote:So, on the way in you trouble them by going after the elbow to break it, stress it, etc.
or Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg.
(making the rear foot light or come off the ground).

Trip wrote:And, I also offered a few more options in that sentence.
The words I used may not mean much to you, but your choice of words kinda implies two separate motions.
It's a subtle difference.

I understood the first time you posted. You said to do defense and offense in one movement. That's why I said:
marvin8 wrote:An example of simultaneous defense/offense is slip and punch at the same time. Thanks for the feedback.

Trip wrote:However, it’s just like anything. You take advantage of what's there.
If you can do, you do.
If you can’t, of course you don’t.

If you can’t throw the right you don’t throw it.
If you’re not in position to do a rear naked choke then you don’t do a rear naked choke.
But if it’s there—then you do.

Understood. If I misunderstood your post or missed some of your points, I apologize.

I only question the time it takes to do some of the larger movements (e.g., elbow break, rear naked choke) and tugging them off balance while a boxer is throwing three punches at you within a second. Maybe you have method here that I am not seeing. Not to offend, just honest questions:
Trip wrote:So, on the way in you trouble them by going after the elbow to break it, stress it, etc.
or Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg.
(making the rear foot light or come off the ground).


marvin8 wrote:The strategy of catching and breaking the elbow is a larger movement. So, I question the time it takes to make that move, against a boxer's punch. AFA uprooting, a decent fighter will not over commit. So, a parry would normally not knock him off balance. In grappling distance, off balancing and joint locking are more probable.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat May 06, 2017 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 06, 2017 2:03 pm

The way I teach press it is more like the boxers jab
A way to off balance and set up
Elbow break is possible on anyone if they get into the right position
A boxer is not always jabbing sometimes he goes in for the kill
When I refer to elbow I mean like they do in arm bar not play the pipa
I see that as more of a disrupter than a finisher
I have put my arm out and let people have repeated attempts at using play the pipa type breaks on me
I remember willy wrong having a discussion with world boxing champion jack caruthers
Jack told him how he had the world record for throwing the most number of blows in one round
200 odd from memory
Willy responded
You couldn't have much power there jack
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby marvin8 on Sat May 06, 2017 5:18 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The way I teach press it is more like the boxers jab
A way to off balance and set up
Elbow break is possible on anyone if they get into the right position
A boxer is not always jabbing sometimes he goes in for the kill
When I refer to elbow I mean like they do in arm bar not play the pipa
I see that as more of a disrupter than a finisher
I have put my arm out and let people have repeated attempts at using play the pipa type breaks on me
I remember willy wrong having a discussion with world boxing champion jack caruthers
Jack told him how he had the world record for throwing the most number of blows in one round
200 odd from memory
Willy responded
You couldn't have much power there jack


Thanks for the info. That makes sense. I realize joint locks can be set up, with the right distance, position, opportunity and timing. In the clip I posted, the boxer evaded two punches (jab and right cross), before finishing. So, it somewhat goes along with what you’re saying. Waiting for the jab and opponent coming in can provide opportunity to be in position to control and finish.

A boxing match can be won, by out pointing or punching the opponent over a number of rounds. So, there is utility in volume of punches in boxing. Goals and weapons are different.

I would post CMA fight clips displaying these skills, however they are hard to come by. That’s why I resort to using boxing clips as an example, which is not ideal as fighting range and rules (no kicking, grabbing, holding, etc.) are different.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 06, 2017 5:37 pm

I meant jimmy caruthers I don't know why I called him jack
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby everything on Sat May 06, 2017 5:49 pm

rollback is one of eight "energies" in tjq. shoulder roll is a technique. shoulder roll is a nice application (doesn't exist in tjq) of roll back "energy". it is helpful to think of roll back "energy" being used in countless ways. ??? ::) :-X :-\
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby everything on Sat May 06, 2017 5:57 pm

both styles seem wonderfully minimalist.

supposedly boxing has perhaps 4 main punches and maybe 8 main defensive techniques, plus footwork and different styles of applying these techniques (the techniques are still essentially the same).

supposedly taijiquan has 8 main "energies" and 5 "steppings". the style is essentially one style (vs. say the very different movement of xingyiquan or baguazhang). people never seem to agree on any techniques (e.g., see long thread here on fist under elbow LOL).
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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