In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby middleway on Sat May 06, 2017 3:59 am

Mma guys dont ridiculue these techniques. They ban them because they are dangerous to the point they are crippling.

They ridicule people who feel that they can use these techniques without any real conditioining of the application, practise with timing & training against live opponents.

.. But the truth of the matter is that many guys who do eyes pokes and groin shots do not have a solid base in the bread and butter moves...


All well said. I don't know many who look down on these techniques either but there are plenty of assholes out there doing martial arts, and alot of egos in the MMA field. It is also baring in mind that some of these methods are used by MMA fighters to play the game a bit and get some rest. We often see them make full recoveries in a minute or so and end up winning fights.

As i have mentioned before i took an accidental, but full power big toe kick to the eye ball during a grappling match. I was able to continue but it was horrifically painful and nearly shut me down, my vision in that eye is still slightly affected. I definitely think an eye poke is a useful tool, i am unsure its a fight ender however, if the opponent is motivated enough.

There is also this legendary fighter who was permanently blinded and kept on fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yko1xLF7AQU

As has been mentioned it is more the lack of skill in many other areas that would inhibit them being actually deployed by most of the people i have seen promote them.

Provided you have timing, power, changeability and movement ... anything is useful. But developing those things to a good level is already very hard. :)
Last edited by middleway on Sat May 06, 2017 4:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby Overlord on Sat May 06, 2017 7:33 am

I know in Aussi rugby, players will continue their game to the end even their tesicles ruptured.
Sometimes both~

Having say that, I can understand why CMA traditions will not go beyond this point~
Having the mindset of tearing someone apart is simply barbaric,
neither is prolong game match considered "clean" and "efficient".

It's one thing to test your skills or compete in skills, but fight another to compete who can outlast a beating~
Extreme measures are for extremes scene, so the sharpness is concealed and dogs bite the hardest don't bark only bite when needed.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 06, 2017 1:47 pm

I have known rugby players to play a complete match with a broken jaw but that was with a lot of medical intervention
In fact the most famous one Jonny sattler I would chat with quite often
The result of playing with those injuries was quite obvious
But I have never known or heard of one playing with ruptured balls
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby Overlord on Sat May 06, 2017 4:47 pm

https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/sports/more-sports/balls-rugby-player-ruptures-testicle-playing-article-1.1178377


https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/rugby-star-suffers-ruptured-testicle-1821208.amp

Chris Flannery (2004): Sydney Roosters utility ruptured his testicle in NRL semi-final, played on, got treated afterwards and played in the grand final a week later


Now you know~
Last edited by Overlord on Sat May 06, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby dspyrido on Sat May 06, 2017 5:16 pm

middleway wrote:We often see them make full recoveries in a minute or so and end up winning fights.
...

I definitely think an eye poke is a useful tool, i am unsure its a fight ender however, if the opponent is motivated enough.


Anyone who has played contact sport, sparred (inc competition) or ever done some door work for an extended time has worn nut strikes, throat hits and maybe even a poke or two. They sting and can hurt but can be powered through. But 2 things come into mind:

1. They are usually unintentional or have to be hidden like they are unintentional which nerfs a lot of their power. Sometimes we even get given time to recover by a referee.
2. They dont usually continue to "accidentally" happen 2, 3, 4 times in a combo along with another "illegal" moves

Jabs, pokes, groin kicks are a bit like king hits, sacrificing throws or slam tackles - they work really well against the unprepared. Against someone trained not so good.

But when mixed in as part of a good fighting regime...



Now what's it going to look like if these where legal?
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby windwalker on Sat May 06, 2017 5:19 pm



I'd say the guy may be missing a little bit more than just one testicle.

Anything that is a show stopper has to some way effect the CNS directly or cause enough damage that physically it is impossible to continue.

I knew a guy at one time who felt he had iron forearms.
He could take a lot of hits with no apparent damage.

He let me try and was left with a very deep bruise on his arm. He said that was the first time it happened to him. For this guy one would have to break the arm.

In other cases I have broken some people's arms accidentally, clean breaks no outward indication.

It did tend to stop whatever they where doing from the pain and also because they could no longer use the arm directly.

We would both find out the arm was broken the next day after x-rays showing a clean break, very strange.



.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 06, 2017 5:45 pm

You are right overlord and that wasn't even real rugby league that was English rugby league
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 06, 2017 5:48 pm

dspyrido wrote:
middleway wrote:We often see them make full recoveries in a minute or so and end up winning fights.
...

I definitely think an eye poke is a useful tool, i am unsure its a fight ender however, if the opponent is motivated enough.


Anyone who has played contact sport, sparred (inc competition) or ever done some door work for an extended time has worn nut strikes, throat hits and maybe even a poke or two. They sting and can hurt but can be powered through. But 2 things come into mind:

1. They are usually unintentional or have to be hidden like they are unintentional which nerfs a lot of their power. Sometimes we even get given time to recover by a referee.
2. They dont usually continue to "accidentally" happen 2, 3, 4 times in a combo along with another "illegal" moves

Jabs, pokes, groin kicks are a bit like king hits, sacrificing throws or slam tackles - they work really well against the unprepared. Against someone trained not so good.

But when mixed in as part of a good fighting regime...



Now what's it going to look like if these where legal?


Have you ever seen an eye popped out,easy enough to do in grappling,they don't keep fighting then
I have had hard kicks to the groin that haven't stopped me and soft ones that dropped me to my knees
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby windwalker on Sat May 06, 2017 6:07 pm

I have had hard kicks to the groin that haven't stopped me and soft ones that dropped me to my knees


yep,,BTDT :o

The Chinese have theories based on where to hit, how, and the results it should or will cause.
If any one gets a chance to work with someone who knows this, they might find it might interesting.

Had friend who used to get into bar fights and things,
he used this way of striking and said he could drop most people most of the time.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby Overlord on Sat May 06, 2017 6:36 pm

windwalker wrote:


I'd say the guy may be missing a little bit more than just one testicle.

Anything that is a show stopper has to some way effect the CNS directly or cause enough damage that physically it is impossible to continue.

I knew a guy at one time who felt he had iron forearms.
He could take a lot of hits with no apparent damage.

He let me try and was left with a very deep bruise on his arm. He said that was the first time it happened to him. For this guy one would have to break the arm.

In other cases I have broken some people's arms accidentally, clean breaks no outward indication.

It did tend to stop whatever they where doing from the pain and also because they could no longer use the arm directly.

We would both find out the arm was broken the next day after x-rays showing a clean break, very strange.

.


Not strange~
Some people just not suitable for learning kungfu~
Lack of sensitivity, control and too much Liqi 戾氣 make them not suitable to learn or practice with.
Liqi is inner hidden violent energy, and is a very subconscious and lack of control with sudden outburst~

Probably MMA is a better option~
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby dspyrido on Sat May 06, 2017 9:55 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Have you ever seen an eye popped out,easy enough to do in grappling,they don't keep fighting then
I have had hard kicks to the groin that haven't stopped me and soft ones that dropped me to my knees


It is pretty random. Things that look like show stoppers dont seem to be and things that look like little taps can be fight finishes.

I have not seen an eye hanging but I saw a friend of mine loose half the sight in his eye during sparring when he did a take down. The person he did it on fell back and extended his elbow. The elbow point landed just to the side of the eye and bare!y touched the bone. Result was he lost sight in the lower half of that eye. I was amazed he recovered after a few weeks.

Ive seen and felt the result of nut strikes that turn the area black and blue. Sure we can power through them but it is a slow nasty recovery. I even saw someone in a tournament rupture their own groin doing a kick which ended his fight immediately. Random.

I also saw a friend of mine leap several feet back when he was trying to pin someone down along with two other bouncers in a club. He ended with a nice bite mark right through his shirt. Teeth can be scary when applied properly.

Put these tools in the hands of well trained individuals who can time it well and mix in other moves and I'm pretty sure there will be a lot more permanent maimings in mma. People who dismiss them are ignoring the evidence seen in ufc.
Last edited by dspyrido on Sat May 06, 2017 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby windwalker on Sat May 06, 2017 10:10 pm

Overlord wrote: Not strange~
Some people just not suitable for learning kungfu~
Lack of sensitivity, control and too much Liqi 戾氣 make them not suitable to learn or practice with.
Liqi is inner hidden violent energy, and is a very subconscious and lack of control with sudden outburst~

Probably MMA is a better option~


Don't know whats the better option, never cared much for MMA left CMA gyms when they started to modify things to compete, or
could not make what they did work as trained.

"sensitivity" What we trained at that time back in the 70s, was to either hit, or to be able to take a hit. there was no middle ground.

There are four principles for Hop Gar: cruelty, evasion, penetration and interception.

When asked about cruelty, Chin stoically quotes the Lama White Crane kung fu classics:

"When hunting a tiger, destroy it. Otherwise, a wounded tiger will return to harm you.
When weeding a garden, pull up the roots. Otherwise, the weeds will grow back.
Whether the lion is hunting an elephant or a rabbit, the lion always uses full force."


A lot of the time was spent de - sensitizing, body and mind....Guys who used to train at the gym
trained there because they needed something that they could use,,,,not exactly social worker types spreading the good word.

Lack of sensitivity, control and too much Liqi 戾氣 make them not suitable to learn or practice with.


I did mention that what happened was not intentional just the nature of the training.
Changing the mind set and body conditioning was a major undertaking for me..something I did in understanding my own interest and path.

oddly enough what I do now,
is judge by not feeling anything by those I work with while they are moved not understanding how or why.
like skipping a stone.

Yes, for some not able to "fan song" enough,
they may never really get to a point were
they can feel their own inner tensions.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 07, 2017 4:07 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby Overlord on Sun May 07, 2017 6:03 am

Liqi is not about tension.
Usually it is habit of ill intention built over long period of time, resulting this violent emotion hidden subconsciously.
In Chinese it is also called 殺伐之氣~
It's nothing to do skills, more like lack of control~ emotionally then actionally.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby windwalker on Sun May 07, 2017 6:31 am

Overlord wrote:Liqi is not about tension.
Usually it is habit of ill intention built over long period of time, resulting this violent emotion hidden subconsciously.
In Chinese it is also called 殺伐之氣~
It's nothing to do skills, more like lack of control~ emotionally then actionally.


what ever, some of the old time teachers I knew were not nice guys.
Maybe if you ever get a chance to talk with some of them you can talk them about "sensitivity"
in Chinese no less.

Just sharing some past history from long ago....as others have noted
things happen accidentally that may not happen intentionally.
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