In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

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In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:09 pm

Certain techniques taught in traditional arts, such as fingers to the eyes, kicks to the groin, and hammer fist to the back of the head, have often been ridiculed in recent years by practitioners of modern combatives -- like MMA -- as ineffective or useless in actual fights.

However, I find it ironically amusing that the very same techniques they look down upon are actually common fight stoppers that make strapping young lads bend over in ball-crushing agony when used illegally in competition. ;)

Enjoy. ;D


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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby windwalker on Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:24 pm

In most cases they are illegal, for a reason ;)

However I think what most talk about is the reliance on these
over a perceived lack of general skill.

For some people all it may do is piss them off, for others it may be a show stopper.

IME, with things like "burning palm and iron palm" they are indeed show stoppers
but also need an effective delivery system to support them.

The Chinese back in the day understanding this also created things like "iron body or golden bell"
its my understanding there is nothing that can be done for the eyes :o

apparently they do have "iron balls" :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWsgBqNuVEk
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby windwalker on Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:32 pm

Image
http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane

This stance used both in the white crane and hop gar systems called the 45' horse.

Was supposed to protect one from groin kicks.
The idea was that the kick could never reach its intended target stopped by running into the muscles of the thighs ect.

It was tested by having one assume the stance and allowing others to kick you trying to hit ones groin...
As is in most cases it takes a couple of shots before one gets it right,,,only a couple :o ,,,like one :P
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby dspyrido on Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:17 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Certain techniques taught in traditional arts, such as fingers to the eyes, kicks to the groin, and hammer fist to the back of the head, have often been ridiculed in recent years by practitioners of modern combatives -- like MMA -- as ineffective or useless in actual fights.

However, I find it ironically amusing that the very same techniques they look down upon are actually common fight stoppers that make strapping young lads bend over in ball-crushing agony when used illegally in competition. ;)


Mma guys dont ridiculue these techniques. They ban them because they are dangerous to the point they are crippling.

They ridicule people who feel that they can use these techniques without any real conditioining of the application, practise with timing & training against live opponents. You know - people who like to wave thier hands in the air or kick a static pad and say "see I can kill you".
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:59 pm

windwalker wrote:Image
http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane

This stance used both in the white crane and hop gar systems called the 45' horse.

Was supposed to protect one from groin kicks.
The idea was that the kick could never reach its intended target stopped by running into the muscles of the thighs ect.

It was tested by having one assume the stance and allowing others to kick you trying to hit ones groin...
As is in most cases it takes a couple of shots before one gets it right,,,only a couple :o ,,,like one :P


Tibetan White Crane (a.k.a. Lama pai) is a very practical hard-hitting style that can get you into fighting shape pretty quickly. I have a lot of respect for it.

Those trademark long-range, arm-swinging, heavy strikes are certainly not to be trifled with!
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby C.J.W. on Mon May 01, 2017 12:27 am

dspyrido wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:Certain techniques taught in traditional arts, such as fingers to the eyes, kicks to the groin, and hammer fist to the back of the head, have often been ridiculed in recent years by practitioners of modern combatives -- like MMA -- as ineffective or useless in actual fights.

However, I find it ironically amusing that the very same techniques they look down upon are actually common fight stoppers that make strapping young lads bend over in ball-crushing agony when used illegally in competition. ;)


Mma guys dont ridiculue these techniques. They ban them because they are dangerous to the point they are crippling.

They ridicule people who feel that they can use these techniques without any real conditioining of the application, practise with timing & training against live opponents. You know - people who like to wave thier hands in the air or kick a static pad and say "see I can kill you".


Your view certainly sounds more rational, and perhaps shared by those who focus on and understand the value of striking.

But the impression I've gotten over the years -- since way back when Royce and BJJ still reigned supreme -- is that many sports fighters, especially those whose main art is grappling, do not believe that a simple move such as a finger jab or a groin kick would be enough to stop them dead in their tracks.

Their usual argument is either they will be able to take the hit and still take you down, or that those strikes are considered low-percentage moves that do not work well in a live environment because they require too much precision.

The same can be said for hammerfist to the back of the head and knee to the face; both are typical responses found in traditional arts against leg tackles, but often dismissed by BJJ guys and wrestlers as laughable. Yet in the clip I provided, there are instances where those moves are so successfully (and yes, illegally) applied against takedown attempts that the referees had to jump in to keep the players from being seriously injured.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Mon May 01, 2017 12:33 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby windwalker on Mon May 01, 2017 1:04 am

C.J.W. wrote:
windwalker wrote:Image
http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane

This stance used both in the white crane and hop gar systems called the 45' horse.

Was supposed to protect one from groin kicks.
The idea was that the kick could never reach its intended target stopped by running into the muscles of the thighs ect.

It was tested by having one assume the stance and allowing others to kick you trying to hit ones groin...
As is in most cases it takes a couple of shots before one gets it right,,,only a couple :o ,,,like one :P


Tibetan White Crane (a.k.a. Lama pai) is a very practical hard-hitting style that can get you into fighting shape pretty quickly. I have a lot of respect for it.

Those trademark long-range, arm-swinging, heavy strikes are certainly not to be trifled with!


Thanks, ;)

as a young teen and later young man, I used this style against, many different styles correcting some
misconceptions about CMA that some had at the time...

Mike S, and Gary Fong,
Image
my teachers back then started to modify the style incorporating boxing hands so that Gary
could fight in one of the local full contact venues of the day. Not really what I was looking for,
left the gym following my own path.

Tibetan White Crane, considered a fighting style among other CMA styles.
They didn't mess around back then, the training was very severe.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon May 01, 2017 2:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby Dmitri on Mon May 01, 2017 6:56 am

For those who forgot (or didn't know) -- it all used to be perfectly legal, not so long ago:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX5et_OGc2A

They're just not very good/solid submission, because you're taking a chance. Check out the groin punches at 1:15 - 1:25, look how utterly ineffective they are. Yeah you can inflict grave injury -- but only IF you are lucky. Which is why all those injuries are accidental and happen very infrequently.

In comparison, on the other hand, when you choke someone, you're not taking any chances; they'll be out sleeping, even if they're on PCP. When you break an arm -- there's no gamble; it's broken regardless of your opponent's pain tolerance levels.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby wayne hansen on Mon May 01, 2017 11:41 am

So mma when they take a hit to the box and they stop the fight for 5 minutes or completely they are just acting
Likewise when they finger jab them to the eyes(by accident) and it changes the fight or they are disqualified ,it doesn't work
I remember a fight against ,I think it was check Congo when he was finishing his fights in the first round with double leg takedowns
A guy just sidestepped him and sent him to sleep with an uppercut,I'm sure in this case a blackfish to the back of the head would have worked just as well
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby dspyrido on Mon May 01, 2017 3:21 pm

Dmitri wrote:For those who forgot (or didn't know) -- it all used to be perfectly legal, not so long ago


Not so long ago was over 20 years ago which is like the dawn of man being compared to modern man. Mma has moved on many times with the wave of wrestlers, then the resurgence of strikers and then even the readoption of heavier kicking styles.

Nowadays when they kick they time it and hit far better. If the kickers can land to the head of a trained moving opponent then the balls are trivial.

Also eye pokes have been incorporated by some fighters to get an edge. They work and are nasty dirty tactics. The guys who do them now mix them in with all thr other tactics vs walking up and assuming it is easy to poke someone without knowing how to evade or sprawl. The 90s eye pokers would have no chance against jon jones bil tze tactics.

Now biting was one that was never really introduced. If that was ever mastered and combined with some good ground work then I wonder how often we would see chokes and arm bars. Luckily it's not. Some things are better left that way.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby dspyrido on Mon May 01, 2017 3:38 pm

C.J.W. wrote:But the impression I've gotten over the years -- since way back when Royce and BJJ still reigned supreme -- is that many sports fighters, especially those whose main art is grappling, do not believe that a simple move such as a finger jab or a groin kick would be enough to stop them dead in their tracks.

Their usual argument is either they will be able to take the hit and still take you down, or that those strikes are considered low-percentage moves that do not work well in a live environment because they require too much precision.

The same can be said for hammerfist to the back of the head and knee to the face; both are typical responses found in traditional arts against leg tackles, but often dismissed by BJJ guys and wrestlers as laughable. Yet in the clip I provided, there are instances where those moves are so successfully (and yes, illegally) applied against takedown attempts that the referees had to jump in to keep the players from being seriously injured.


Yeah there are a lot of arrogant jerks in the sport which then passes to students who sprout the same crap because they are a pack of mindless followers. Shit Ive heard some clueless idiots claim they can power through someone stabbing them even if the guy is good at using the blade.

But the truth of the matter is that many guys who do eyes pokes and groin shots do not have a solid base in the bread and butter moves like evasion, hard striking, counters to take downs. If they are good at applying the other moves in striking, throwing, locking (defences, attacks, reversals) then the eye pokes, gouges, fish hooks, downward strikes, standing kicks on a grounded opponent are next to devastating.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby Steve James on Mon May 01, 2017 3:50 pm

The only reason to keep intentional eye gouges and groin kicks is for preventing intentional maiming. It's why athletes are allowed to tap out. But, outside sport, there's nothing wrong about going for the attacker's eyes or groin. More than likely, he's not a bjj green belt -- and your objective would be to hurt him. It doesn't mean that it will work. So what? Punching him in the chest or face might not work either. You probably won't be fast enough to actually hit anyone's eyes; but, you will close them temporarily.
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby C.J.W. on Mon May 01, 2017 6:06 pm

Here's another example of a quick finger jab to the eyes ending a fight:

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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby Overlord on Mon May 01, 2017 6:23 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Certain techniques taught in traditional arts, such as fingers to the eyes, kicks to the groin, and hammer fist to the back of the head, have often been ridiculed in recent years by practitioners of modern combatives -- like MMA -- as ineffective or useless in actual fights.

However, I find it ironically amusing that the very same techniques they look down upon are actually common fight stoppers that make strapping young lads bend over in ball-crushing agony when used illegally in competition. ;)

Enjoy. ;D




I really like 6:22 when the commutator said "oh no it's illegal knee"
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Re: In defense of finger jabs and groin kicks

Postby wayne hansen on Fri May 05, 2017 9:05 pm

I saw my first eye popped out in 1965
Stretch one of the first of the Sydney sharpies a hard street fighter from Five Dock just slipped his finger in and popped the eye out
It was hanging on the guys chin
I don't now too many fighters who would continue on at that point
It was only a year later I saw an ear bitten off
Groin kicks were part of most fights
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