Taiwan martial arts demo

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby GrahamB on Sat May 13, 2017 12:49 pm

I guess, like "Gracie", Zhang went home with dirt on his back. Somebody should make a website about it for posterity.
"When I argue with reality I lose, but only 100% of the time". Blogs: Tai Chi Notebook http://www.taichinotebook.wordpress.com BJJ Notebook: http://Bjjnotebook.com
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10759
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Sat May 13, 2017 3:29 pm

Tom wrote:Among the 8-10 students watching there was a police officer my size with some nice Chen taiji qinna skill and a 6-foot 7-inch PLA soldier. Zhang was well cared for.
Image

He was more of a detective than policemen. He had mentioned that "jet li" was his class mate and friend
in the wushu school they both went to. His specialty among other things was xingyi. He was quite skilled, more of fellow teacher then student.
Had a habit of lying on one of the bars used for stretching when taking a break...very cool guy,,,good skill.

The PLA sergeant, a very close taiji classmate of mine....
Our first meeting,,,he asked me " what are you an American doing here" through another student who could speak some English.
Despite his size he was very kind and gentle soul. After understanding that I used to be an American GI, he mentioned that we could have both faced each other in some battle field as enemies. This was brought home by a questioned he had once asked
"what would you do if we had met in war"

2 bothers looking at each other, both did not answer.

Zhang, Shifu, attracted many who had practiced other CMA arts for a long time, they stayed after finding something that they could feel but
not really explain nor do..very interesting at times, as they got into some very heated arguments just as many do here, about what was happening, the how and what was being done....Each person would argue from the perspective of what ever art they'ed come from.

Zhang, Shifu, would watch for awhile, then come over and do something to both of them allowing them to feel what they had been arguing about..this tended to quiet things down, people smiled or laughed watching something they felt , happen to someone else. I should mention that often it left a person feeling sick...not something that one volunteered for.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 14, 2017 8:01 pm, edited 7 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5647
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am
Location: Hisnchu, Taiwan

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby dspyrido on Sun May 14, 2017 2:54 pm

Tom wrote:I wasn't particularly interested in the lin kong jin, but I like grappling, because I can sense certain things about the person I'm working with.


This and many other threads are all about LKJ with WW being the most emphatic supporter of them. Ww has signed off more than once with - come to China you & need to feel it.

So you did.

You get half way around the world, meet with the master and decide the that it is not particularly interesting?
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 1930
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Sun May 14, 2017 3:36 pm

dspyrido wrote:
Tom wrote:I wasn't particularly interested in the lin kong jin, but I like grappling, because I can sense certain things about the person I'm working with.


This and many other threads are all about LKJ with WW being the most emphatic supporter of them. Ww has signed off more than once with - come to China you & need to feel it.

So you did.

You get half way around the world, meet with the master and decide the that it is not particularly interesting?


For the record, I may have said you need to feel it .
I cannot recall ever saying go to China or finding any particular teacher to do so, "exception": if a teacher advertises and
invites others to try their work I may suggest those looking for it to contact them.

I have said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.
Tom, did feel this.

Others from RSF have stopped by over the yrs,, I've always asked them to respect zhang, shifus privacy
they have. Most of them no longer post here.

The LKJ is part of this work but not directly, the process of how it works is something I've spent awhile studying and doing my own inquires into for a while.
My own history is from other CMA arts and taiji styles that I've practiced with for some time,,I do have both perspectives from which to draw from and can understand many of the questions asked here but not really what seems to be the closed mindedness that most have concerning this that they dont have on other things that this is based on...

zhang, shifu, has had many long term CMA artiest that stayed long term after feeling something quite different.

Some leave after having stayed for a while 5 or more yrs understanding that they can't get it..or feeling he wasn't teaching them enough
really not the case...He is just "old school" and did not explain things much. It was all doing, not much talking...

There is two parts to the process, one is gaining the skill, the other is learning how to use it...Its not the same
some teachers/ students, having some skill feel they know how to use it, try publicly..In most cases a bad mistake doesn't end well. :P


The many clips brought here are all all things I've either felt or can do at my level, just try to offer
a different perspective. Yes I do agree some of the demos look cheesy, but one should remember in most cases its done in China,
for a Chinese audience. If one teacher shows something the others tend to show the same things.

They are all "demos" its a small aspect of a much lager process at work..many teachers use this aspect to demo a concept.

FWIW at 94 he no longer teaches actively, and doesn't make it to the park so often these days.
Its really only very recently have I mentioned him or his work directly..he is known in Beijing , by many there.
They respecting his privacy never mentioned him publicly.
https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/01/ ... yongliang/
Last edited by windwalker on Mon May 15, 2017 2:44 am, edited 7 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5647
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am
Location: Hisnchu, Taiwan

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Taste of Death on Sun May 14, 2017 6:15 pm

I trained with a 62 year old African American police officer today with decades of martial arts experience including kenpo, small circle jujitsu, tkd and other arts. He said the two heaviest blows he's taken were a kick from a kenpo master and a punch from Sam Tam. The big difference between the two was Sam did not touch him. My taiji/xingyi sifu Henry Look had been on the receiving end of Professor and Madame Yu's lkj and I have kung fu brothers who have witnessed and been affected by Sam Tam's no touch punch. I have never felt or seen such a thing but I don't think the people I train with are lying.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
User avatar
Taste of Death
Wuji
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:07 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Steve James on Sun May 14, 2017 6:25 pm

Did he use his fist?
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 15583
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Taste of Death on Sun May 14, 2017 6:46 pm

Steve James wrote:Did he use his fist?


Yes, Sam hit him in the right side of his abdomen with a left-handed punch that came up short but projected into his body. Then Sam did some of his voodoo and the pain went away. He said it was like getting hit with a baseball bat. He asked Sam to do it so he could feel it. Not a good idea with Sam Tam.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Sun May 14, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
User avatar
Taste of Death
Wuji
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:07 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Bao on Sun May 14, 2017 10:54 pm

Taste of Death wrote:
Steve James wrote:Did he use his fist?


Yes, Sam hit him in the right side of his abdomen with a left-handed punch that came up short but projected into his body. Then Sam did some of his voodoo and the pain went away. He said it was like getting hit with a baseball bat. He asked Sam to do it so he could feel it. Not a good idea with Sam Tam.


Any bruise? Broken rib? That would be more interesting for a MA perspective.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5349
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby dspyrido on Mon May 15, 2017 6:59 pm

windwalker wrote:I have said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.
Tom, did feel this.


Now I confused. Tom - you felt it but it still was not interesting?


windwalker wrote:Yes I do agree some of the demos look cheesy, but one should remember in most cases its done in China,
for a Chinese audience. If one teacher shows something the others tend to show the same things.

They are all "demos" its a small aspect of a much lager process at work..many teachers use this aspect to demo a concept.


This makes sense but cheesiness aside most of it uses stooges who run up walls, fall over themselves & play dead to falsify martial ability. Sometimes it's group dynamics & playing along with a stooge.

Putting the stooges aside & keeping an open mind, I suspect your whole process that you & others talk about is a matter of mental conditioning. That said am happy to be proven wrong.
Last edited by dspyrido on Mon May 15, 2017 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 1930
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Mon May 15, 2017 8:26 pm

That said am happy to be proven wrong.


Why would anyone want to do this, you have proven to yourself that you are right.
Just wondering, do you ascribe the the belief and theory of "qi"
If so what do you feel it enables one to do, that can not be done with out it.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon May 15, 2017 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5647
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am
Location: Hisnchu, Taiwan

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Tom on Tue May 16, 2017 8:27 am

dspyrido wrote:
Tom wrote:I wasn't particularly interested in the lin kong jin, but I like grappling, because I can sense certain things about the person I'm working with.


This and many other threads are all about LKJ with WW being the most emphatic supporter of them. Ww has signed off more than once with - come to China you & need to feel it.

So you did.

You get half way around the world, meet with the master and decide the that it is not particularly interesting?


I didn't travel to Beijing to meet WW's teacher. I was in Beijing on business and had some free time in between other commitments and wanted to work out in the parks and meet people, since the public parks are Beijing's living room. WW is a friend and was in Beijing training with his teacher so I stopped by. The Yang 88 taolu the way Zhang's group practices it can be readily followed and there is some nice deep extended stance work and squatting that make running through the form a good workout. It had rained the day before, so why not take advantage of the rare event of clear Beijing air and train?

I wouldn't have had to go all the way to Beijing to get exposure to LKJ. Sure, while there I watched when I practiced form or did in-contact push-hands, just to see what the regular students seemed to get out of it. I did ask about newcomers or foreign visitors getting to experience it, and at least at that time (more than 10 years ago) was advised more experience was needed or some kind of "sick" feeling or other adverse impact would occur. That was fine with me. I don't know about you, but I don't tend to bulldoze my way into new groups as a guest of one of their students and demand I be shown everything. I was content with form practice and playing with light-contact push-hands and simple applications, and eventually Zhang let me work with him, as I mentioned, with slow application of entry to set-up for throws and with light-contact push-hands. In total I only had a few hours exposure to the group over a couple of days.

WW says "the process is the same" whether working in light-contact push-hands or at a distance. I don't know. Zhang did not make me feel ill when working on set-ups or in push-hands. He was very connected, fluid, subtle and efficient in adapting to different vectors of physical contact. I just assumed his tingjin skill is very well-developed after decades of practice with a wide variety of people. In physical contact Zhang responded to both strong focused intent (entry to setting up a throw) and a more diffused level of intent (light-contact push-hands) appropriately.

So no, I was not particularly interested in the LKJ phenomenon at the time, and I'm not now either. I don't feel any need to prove or disprove LKJ. If people want to feel or attempt to cultivate LKJ abilities, it's their choice on how to spend their time. Are they deluding themselves? Maybe, but it's their life. I'm not a missionary for either mysticism or materialism. My primary interest in Chinese martial arts is for my own physical rehabilitation from serious spinal injuries. CMAs' value for me lies in their jibengong: developing more stability, balance and grace in movement under load. Push-hands and applications for me are bridges to test internal connection, alignment and load distribution, stepping, and awareness and responsiveness to changing conditions. LKJ simply isn't relevant to my purpose in training CMAs.

What was very relevant, and very specific to my being there, was the chance to get hands-on with Zhang himself as a living testament to the physical (and mental) resilience that CMA training well done can build over a lifetime. Jarek and others with long experience in China have noted that many villages around China will have spry vibrant old gentlemen who have trained for a lifetime and it shows. What interests me are what people have done to sustain their physical and mental wellbeing in a culture where, at least until recently, there weren't Crossfit gyms and yoga studios every second block and the tidal waves of history and conflagration and poverty and disease have made it difficult to sustain health. Zhang's history of practice is really what interested me. So I went to practice and watch and chat a bit. That's all.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
Tom
Administrator
 
Posts: 4384
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 16, 2017 11:08 am

How old was Zhang at the time and is there any film of him around that time
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 2291
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Tom on Tue May 16, 2017 1:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:How old was Zhang at the time and is there any film of him around that time


What time, Wayne? If you read the posts Zhang was 86/87 when I met him in 2007 (born ca. 1919/1920 from what I could glean--could be mistaken). One clip shows Zhang in his late 60s or early 70s doing his Yang taolu, but most of the video clips ww posted show Zhang a few years after I met him, when he was 90-ish. Somewhere on Youku there is a brief clip of him publicly demonstrating on a stage. More recently Zhang injured himself and is much more limited in mobility (needs a cane or a wheelchair). With declining mobility can come declining community (a hugely important function of these practices in a park) and declining health.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
Tom
Administrator
 
Posts: 4384
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Tue May 16, 2017 2:16 pm

wayne hansen wrote:How old was Zhang at the time and is there any film of him around that time


As Tom mentioned he was in his 80s at the time probably closer to 90,,,From my notes he was born in
1920.

Some of the other clips show him in his 90s.
The clip of him showing some of his form work he was in his 60s.
Over the yrs he's had different people wanting to write about him or film him for public.
Its only very recently has he really allowed this
preferring to remain privet, he is known in Beijing circles of IMA people..

He never seemed to age in my time with him, it seemed at some point like time caught up with him.
He is pushed to the park in a wheel chair but once there he seems to come alive, playing the form, ph and working with his students. although his family members and the older students make sure that he does not do to much.

The LKJ as mention a part of the practice not really the main part.
There are levels of interaction based on different things.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo

His way of teaching was through doing and feeling...even with the native speakers a lot
of what was done was hard to get. At the time of this clip he was 89 or 90.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 16, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5647
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am
Location: Hisnchu, Taiwan

Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Tom on Tue May 16, 2017 3:17 pm

Just by way of background observation, based on some direct and a lot of second-hand reporting--Zhang Yongliang had a wealth of martial training experience. What's gone into someone's gongfu is not always readily apparent from watching them today. Zhang trained 17 years in baguazhang before he met his Yang style taijiquan teacher, with whom he trained only 4 years before losing track of his teacher in the upheavals of the Cultural Devolution. My understanding is that Zhang trained in Yin style baguazhang (which branch I am not clear on). He was friends with Zhou Zunfo, who is variously identified as being in Yin Fu's lineage and is in Cheng Tinghua's line in other documents.

Zhang met his Yang style taijiquan teacher (whom he will generally not specifically identify, at that teacher's request, but for various reasons whom I speculate was in the same line as the late Wang Yongquan) in 1962 (when Zhang was about 42). That taiji teacher was apparently in his early 70s when Zhang met him. The teacher had been watching Zhang train, and eventually invited Zhang to try him. Three tries, three times Zhang wound up in the dust (or a story somewhat along those lines). Zhang asked to study with the taiji teacher, and had to commit to dropping his previous (baguazhang) training and just working on taiji jibengong and solo form training for 3 years, eventually moving to tuishou before losing contact with his teacher as China moved into turmoil. Since the mid-1960s Zhang has been training and developing on his own. Zhang has been publicly teaching, quietly and without charging money for his teaching, since 1980.

Some aspects of Zhang's movement (seem to) reflect his earlier baguazhang training (waist usage, spiraling in application). Years ago there were complete weapons sets and stepping drills taught as well.

There are a limited number of sources in Chinese media on Zhang Yongliang and his teaching. One article was translated into English and summarized here: https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/01/13/master-zhang-yongliang/
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
Tom
Administrator
 
Posts: 4384
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest