Taiwan martial arts demo

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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby wiesiek on Tue May 09, 2017 12:27 pm

Bao wrote:
wiesiek wrote:and here I found soft and hard very well connected :

https://youtu.be/dSL9KFFYG_s


At 7.00-02, he bumps in to a student with force. When he can break rocks and show off being so strong, why does nothing happen with the student? Break his chest? Spits blood? Not much power in that attack.

:)
you know, Bao using such power - to hurt during the demo... , hmm well stupid or what? :o :D ,
anyway,
truth is, that -
he is cheating by lifting stones ,a little, before the hit.
but, I`ve been thinkin`, that he moves nuf good to add some pictures to the diss...

@ At about 16.00,
- sorry to hear that, but I sow only 1st couple of minutes of vid., so I even didn`t know/sow this part earlier,
btw, my net fu is much toooooo low, for: cut , paste and post here part of the material, :'(
sorry again.
Last edited by wiesiek on Tue May 09, 2017 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby wiesiek on Tue May 09, 2017 12:43 pm

..." and the video I posted the day before this one of the Yongquan demo from London has zero comments..."

didn`t sow it yet , /later/,but Graham
you shouldn`t be complaining about J.Ch.egg demo, which I posted, at list.
Something like circus magic fu, quite TCMA demo,
me thinkin`
Last edited by wiesiek on Tue May 09, 2017 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Bao on Tue May 09, 2017 1:38 pm

robert wrote:Emitted qi is not a question for physics, but the scientific method. Back in 1996 a fourth grader, Emily Rosa, tested Therapeutic Touch (TT) practitioners who claimed they could feel a "Human Energy Field" (HEF) emanating from a human body. She tested 21 people and none of them passed her test.

There is good reason to say emitted qi is BS. There is zero evidence to support it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa

Some healers claim they can feel the energy of these elusive and ineluctable biofields, vibrations, auras, or rays. Therapeutic touch (TT) practitioners make this claim. Twenty-one practitioners, who knew from much experience that they could feel the energy around the bodies of patients, were tested. They had never been tested, however, in a situation where they could not see the source of the alleged "energy field." Nine-year-old Emily Rosa tested these energy healers to see if they could feel her life energy when they could not see its source. The test was very simple and seems to clearly indicate that the subjects could not detect the life energy of the little girl’s hands when placed near theirs. They had a 50% chance of being right in each test, yet they correctly located Emily's hand only 44% of the time in 280 trials. If they can’t detect the energy, how can they manipulate or transfer it? What are they detecting? Most likely they are detecting what has been suggested to them by those who taught them this practice. Their feelings of energy detection appear to be manufactured in their own minds. Krieger has been offered $1,000,000 by James Randi to demonstrate that she, or anyone else for that matter, can detect the human energy field. So far, Krieger has not been tested.


http://www.skepdic.com/tt.html

It has been disproved by a 9 year old 8-)


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/s ... b557958f6a
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Tom on Tue May 09, 2017 1:52 pm

These are clips of a group in Beijing that WW is familiar with. The bald elderly gentleman in a white t-shirt in a couple of the clips is Zhang Yongliang, an exponent of the action-at-a-distance phenomenon under discussion. Those who understand Chinese will find in the casual conversation on these clips little or no discussion of physics. Rather, human perception is the common element.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKyMp0r7x-I



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H63FXtOA2_A



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfWA5SdOUwQ

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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 2:26 pm

Tom wrote:These are clips of a group in Beijing that WW is familiar with. The bald elderly gentleman in a white t-shirt in a couple of the clips is Zhang Yongliang, an exponent of the action-at-a-distance phenomenon under discussion. Those who understand Chinese will find in the casual conversation on these clips little or no discussion of physics. Rather, human perception is the common element.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKyMp0r7x-I



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H63FXtOA2_A



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfWA5SdOUwQ



Familiar with ;)

In like master zhang, has been my teacher for over the last 10yrs..
why not post some of your thoughts on the interactions you had with him when
you visited, it might help those looking at the clips. .

He did not use physics to explain things with, he spoke in terms of traditional Chinese thought,
that accords with the theory of how such things are said to work. What is shown was an everyday experience
for those there. It was master zhangs way of teaching...In this aspect they are not demos just clips of a normal teaching session.
At 94 he no longer teaches actively but still makes it out to the park to practice once in awhile, at the time of the clips he was in
his early 90s

It was very interesting at times, as those there would argue about what just happened as many do here, even after having just experienced something they could not do nor explain. Their view points centered on their own past experiences with the styles they had practiced with in the past.

Many of master zhangs, students including my self had practiced other things for quite some time before meeting him....
after meeting him many stayed as I did exploring a very different understanding....
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 3:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 2:44 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHIbzfG_avE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo

These clips might be a little more understandable for those viewing..
Touched or not the same processes are used...

His practice has changed somewhat over the yrs
some of the way he played taiji in his 60s at the time of the clip...


a little of his history for those interested
https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/01/ ... yongliang/
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby robert on Tue May 09, 2017 3:57 pm

Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Tom on Tue May 09, 2017 4:49 pm

windwalker wrote:
Tom wrote:These are clips of a group in Beijing that WW is familiar with. The bald elderly gentleman in a white t-shirt in a couple of the clips is Zhang Yongliang, an exponent of the action-at-a-distance phenomenon under discussion. Those who understand Chinese will find in the casual conversation on these clips little or no discussion of physics. Rather, human perception is the common element.

[snip]


Familiar with?

In like master zhang, has been my teacher for over the last 10yrs..
why not post some of your thoughts on the interactions you had with him when
you visited.

He did not use physics to explain things with, he spoke in terms of traditional Chinese thought,
that accords with the theory of how such things are said to work. What is shown was an everyday experience
for those there. It was master zhangs way of teaching. . . .
[snip]

It was very interesting at times, as those there would argue about what just happened as many do here, even after having just experienced something they could not do nor explain. Their view points centered on their own past experiences with the styles they had practiced with in the past.

[snip]


As I noted, human perception is the common element in the discussions.

I did visit Zhang Yongliang with you in September 2007 when I was in Beijing for business, and had the opportunity to observe Zhang's teaching and the group practice at different times over a few days. I have a variety of recollections, but specifically with regard to the kong jin under discussion on this thread, the manipulation of the student without physical contact did not consistently work, and when it did not work, the non-event was explained in terms of the student lacking sufficient sensitivity and qi (the student had to have enough qi for Zhang to lead/manipulate, or else Zhang would have to add some of his own qi to the interaction).

As a first-time visitor and non-student, I was not allowed to experience kong jin--I asked a few times through other people, and the explanation was a concern that the experience might make me "sick" or have some other adverse effect. However, I was allowed to engage in light-contact free-form playful push-hands with a number of the students, and when they saw I was not there to challenge them or threaten anyone's self-esteem, I eventually got some hands-on play time with Zhang Yongliang himself. He was a gentle, good-humored old gentleman with a number of noteworthy qualities. He seemed very open to engaging with me. His arms were supple, warm and very heavy, despite his small stature (I'd estimate I was almost twice his weight). Although Zhang's speed and strength were limited as would be reasonably expected in a man of his age (about 86-87 at the time), he was very connected when he let me put him in some different set-up positions for throws (not to execute the throw but just to feel his balance), so surprisingly connected out of proportion with his size and age that I repeatedly laughed at the clash with my own expectations, sometimes laughing so hard I coughed. Zhang Yongliang clearly achieved a high level of physical gongfu that persevered into his later years. That was another noteworthy thing during tuishou: when he stumbled backwards 10-12 feet and fell into the dirt, he got back up, smiling, and after I helped dust him off he was ready to go again. Most sedentary Americans of Zhang's age would have broken both wrists and probably a hip falling onto his back like he did. It's a clear testament to Zhang's gongfu, resilience and level of song that he bounced right back up.

One of Zhang's students, "Da" Wang, was working with Zhang on learning the use of qi for healing purposes. I have ongoing chronic pain from some serious spinal injuries I sustained many years ago, and am open to trying different healing modalities. The long flight to Beijing had not done my back any good, so after loosening up with some taolu and stretching, I peeled off my shirt to let Da Wang do some qi healing under Zhang's guidance. There was some light brushing of the skin along my spine, then some non-contact movement of Da Wang's hands, then inquiry as to what I felt. I did not feel anything at the time, nor later (it's my understanding other people report delayed effects from this kind of healing work).

From the research I did into Zhang's background at the time, it seems likely that the unnamed taiji teacher that he trained with in the early 1960s (and lost touch with during the Cultural Devolution) was Wang Yongquan or a gongfu brother of Wang's. The 1987 clip of Wang's (filmed at the age of 84, after he'd had a stroke) shows him using a number of the same techniques and the same general paradigm of explanation that Zhang Yongliang did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz7AGjWcDxs



It's my understanding that now, in his late 90s, Zhang is more frail and in declining health, and not seen much anymore in the secluded practice area in the Yuan Dynasty Dadu City Wall Park. But for decades he practiced quietly, shunning publicity, freely sharing his teaching in jibengong, taolu, tuishou, and in the early years weapons, based on his long years of persevering, dedicated practice. Experienced practitioners of many martial arts and taiji styles visited and practiced with him over the decades, including Chenshi taiji, xingyi and bagua. A senior disciple of the late Wang Peisheng had come by to explore what Zhang taught.

Those are some of my recollections and thoughts from visiting Zhang Yongliang in Beijing almost 10 years ago. The kong jin is not something I was or am specifically interested in (if other people are, that is fine with me). My primary reason for wanting to visit with Zhang was to see an example of living history. If you consider the times that Zhang lived through, his perseverance in practice and cultivation is impressive.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 5:06 pm

Thanks for the detailed write-up. ;)
You looked like you enjoyed the
meeting and had fun.

Time passes so fast.

While he did not use physics to explain things.
In exploring the process I have found that physics can account for a large part of it. With the native speakers I work with, using physics makes things a lot more clear and understandable.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 5:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue May 09, 2017 6:52 pm

I don't have anything to say about the lin kong jin, but I very much like his form practice. A pleasure to watch. From Tom's story, it also sounds like he was a pleasant and skilled teacher without a chip on his shoulder.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 7:55 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I don't have anything to say about the lin kong jin, but I very much like his form practice. A pleasure to watch. From Tom's story, it also sounds like he was a pleasant and skilled teacher without a chip on his shoulder.


Thanks for the kind words. ;)

He was / is a really good guy, one as Tom mentioned for me represented old China, living history as Tom noted,
he could make much of the old stories more then just stories.
The training to do some of the things was not easy.

Asking his 1st grandson one day on how to improve he said " the more pain you can endure the deeper level of practice you can achieve"
His grand son actually did the practice under a table, the kind they cut meat on back in the day.

The "kong jin" In many aspects was just an extension of the practice....not really the main point of the practice.

It did make a person sick, when ever he did it,,,it wasn't something that people lined up to volunteer for.
Had a taiji bother of mine visiting many yrs back..He brought his student with him who had asked to be demoed on by master zhang.

MZ, made a pulling motion from a couple of feet back. My friends student was drawn forward, started sweating, almost passed out....
This was a first time meeting..

I had once asked master zhang about this. This is what he said " if I use to much they may get injured, if not enough they wont feel it" in most cases unless he knew the person or felt the person had some sensitivity to it, it was not something he would do on a first meeting...FWIW

Yes, a lot of the demos, are kind of cheesy, I would suspect reflecting the intended audience.
For non native speakers not understanding the narrative some of it might not really be understandably.

IMO, the mistake that teachers some times make, is not really understanding the things they can do,
they may not be able to really use.

"not in the way they'er demoed"
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 10, 2017 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Franklin on Tue May 09, 2017 10:46 pm

Tom wrote: That was another noteworthy thing during tuishou: when he stumbled backwards 10-12 feet and fell into the dirt, he got back up, smiling, and after I helped dust him off he was ready to go again. Most sedentary Americans of Zhang's age would have broken both wrists and probably a hip falling onto his back like he did. It's a clear testament to Zhang's gongfu, resilience and level of song that he bounced right back up.




maybe i was raised differently then other people...
but who does push hands with an 80 year old and sends him back 12 feet and into the dirt?

???

i can not understand this
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 11:13 pm

Franklin wrote:maybe i was raised differently then other people...
but who does push hands with an 80 year old and sends him back 12 feet and into the dirt?

???

i can not understand this


Zhang shifu, was very happy in engaging with Tom, he wanted people to feel his art not talk about it.
In the exchange with Tom, he miss stepped and stumbled back.

Tom gave him an honest effort as asked for by Zhang, shifu, anything less
would have been seen and known by all, it would have been taken the wrong way....
Tom, as noted was laughing, we all were at the time watching the interaction.
As sometimes happens, things happen.

Master Zhangs, most common saying when asked a real question "try it" ;)

He was pretty active until his early 90s...
later on some of the students would bring him to the park in a wheel chair...
Once there he would stand up, and come alive...interacting with those there.
They were very protective of him, always telling him to take a break,
he himself did not seem to understand how old
he really was... ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 09, 2017 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Bao on Wed May 10, 2017 12:01 am

windwalker wrote:They were very protective of him, always telling him to take a break,
he himself did not seem to understand how old
he really was... ;)


If I reach an old age, I would probably prefer to die as I do something I like and together with friends, than die crippled in a bed. Dying is not important, living is. Your teacher seems to be surrounded by friends all of the time, and not all old people are so privileged.

Your last posts have been very reasonable and I think that the crew here might now have a better understanding of your position.
I wish you all of the best in Taiwan. I hope to be able to visit the place. Maybe sooner or later.

/David
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby windwalker on Wed May 10, 2017 12:33 am

thanks ;)

Your teacher seems to be surrounded by friends all of the time, and not all old people are so privileged.


Actually I felt that I was the one privileged in this life to have met him.

I know on the net, things may come off a little differently then intended
as many have pointed out to me, my writing is not always so clear,
something I am painfully aware of...

Taiwan, I hope all get a chance to visit here, great food, very kind people with many interesting things to see and do.
A little more user friendly then China, although my heart is there too, IMO Taiwan is a little easier
to stay and make a life.
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