Taiwan martial arts demo

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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby cloudz on Wed May 10, 2017 1:53 am

Bao wrote:
I don't fully agree. Purpose or not, the most TKD people who demonstrate things in shows or even win competitions can not fight for real. The same goes for a demo like in the OP. Regardless if the skills are true or not, it still doesn't mean that they are useful in a real fight or that the demonstrators can fight.

What is there more to explain than people jumping around? It's a show and they demonstrate for a show. Of course everyone will cooperate to make the show good. A demo have nothing to do with if something is real or useful in any other context. Everything you will see in a staged demo is faked. It's just a show. But IMO, this kind of demo needs a cultural context. It's not easy to understand for any of us who were not born and raised in this culture.



I don't buy all this apologetics and excuses. I appreciate the earlier point that these are regular people doing a hobby, but I think there's a pretence to it that is unhealthy and potentially damaging on different levels. I also would dispute the way in which you wish to categotise martial demonstrations as if "they are all the same" anyway.

These guys are demonstrating their training and people judge that, they judge in respect of what they think it can offer them. I saw a demo not long ago actually at a seaside town, i could see from the training that it would be useful and lead in a worthwhile direction. When I look at these 2 demonstrations in the OP, to me it leads in a dubious direction away from self protection or fighting skills under pressure. One of them definitely does, the other could be just about salvaged with some changes & additions.

I have also been accused on this board of believing that TCMA must somehow prove itself to me in competition for me to see it as worthwhile or useful. I still feel put out my that! lol. Well here I'm going to post 2 clips that I think the training is great and I would be more than happy to be part of it and demonstrate it to prospective interested party, which surely is the point of a demo. To represent what you do and why you do it, more or less. Compared to these the 2 OP demo's are clearly sub standard and wanting so let's not make excuses on that score. We can all appreciate they are all having fun doing theatrics.. but they can be reminded that it's never too late!

My point being; if your training is good, that's all you should really need to demonstrate. And it should be enough for other martial artists and lay people to see the value without pretence and theatrics to mislead them.



Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 10, 2017 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Bao on Wed May 10, 2017 2:13 am

cloudz wrote:
Bao wrote:
I don't fully agree. Purpose or not, the most TKD people who demonstrate things in shows or even win competitions can not fight for real. The same goes for a demo like in the OP. Regardless if the skills are true or not, it still doesn't mean that they are useful in a real fight or that the demonstrators can fight.

What is there more to explain than people jumping around? It's a show and they demonstrate for a show. Of course everyone will cooperate to make the show good. A demo have nothing to do with if something is real or useful in any other context. Everything you will see in a staged demo is faked. It's just a show. But IMO, this kind of demo needs a cultural context. It's not easy to understand for any of us who were not born and raised in this culture.



I don't buy all this apologetics and excuses. I appreciate the earlier point that these are regular people doing a hobby, but I think there's a pretence to it that is unhealthy and potentially damaging on different levels. I also would dispute the way in which you wish to categotise martial demonstrations as if "they are all the same" anyway.

These guys are demonstrating their training and people judge that, they judge in respect of what they think it can offer them. I saw a demo not long ago actually at a seaside town, i could see from the training that it would be useful and lead in a worthwhile direction. When I look at these 2 demonstrations in the OP, to me it leads in a dubious direction away from self protection or fighting skills under pressure. One of them definitely does, the other could be just about salvaged with some changes & additions.


The thing is... that in Chinese culture, sometimes surface and what's behind or inside the surface, I.e. substance doesn't always match. And this is often very much accepted. How something is presented is often not what you get when buy something. This goes for things, services, and anything you possibly can buy for money. People sell things using the outside, the look, the surface. Then what's inside most often doesn't match the surface. People also do accept that martial arts is presented differently in a show. It's like Chinese Wuxia film fighting or what you can see in Peking Opera. The fighting is abstract, beautiful, symbolic and nothing close to reality. It is a different expression and something by it's own that represents something else. If a martial arts show or demo wasn't fantastic, the audience would be disappointed and bored.

It can be hard to understand this very cultural experience if you aren't Chinese, but I do think that a person as W.W. understand this. But I also think that he maybe that takes it too granted that others must understand as well. So he tries to explain more about the substance, while people are still concerned by the surface.
....And please correct me if I'm wrong WW. 8-)

Btw, I like the second video very much. The first one, I have no real opinion about.
Last edited by Bao on Wed May 10, 2017 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby cloudz on Wed May 10, 2017 2:20 am

I'm not insenstive to cultural sensibilities to the degree I can't understand them. I live in a multi cultural city and my parents were foreign too, so foreign culture, adapting to different culture is not an alien concept for many people. Including myself I think.

You can understand something and even be sympathetic. It doesn't mean you should stay silent forever and put up with *whatever* no matter what. Sometimes there are opportunities for change and progress, if you constantly accept and make excuses you cut off and narrow any opportunity for change.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 10, 2017 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby cloudz on Wed May 10, 2017 2:30 am

Bao wrote:[ The first one, I have no real opinion about.


Course not

You don't have to of course, it's training. You don't train like that? you don't like the training? you don't like the skills techniques and so on? None of that matters to me. You don't have to like every single action others make. The point is (the reason I put it here) people in TCMA do train like this and they can demonstrate it (martial training). So the very least any martial demo can do to not devolve into mere theatrics is have people realistically attacking and defending with strikes or some form (or other) of grappling involved. As tends to happen typically in "real life".

No real opinion about that of course.
But you can have an opinion on people prancing about peddling snake oil and selling bullshit under some pretence of "martial arts"- it's a cultural hobby for middle aged men, all's tickety boo.
Gotta love that. ;D
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 10, 2017 5:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby wiesiek on Wed May 10, 2017 2:43 am

let me try, :
in the 1st vid. skillz levels are close to even,
in the second one - difference is obvious, how much the teacher is good - have no idea without testing :)
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby cloudz on Wed May 10, 2017 2:50 am

wiesiek wrote:let me try, :
in the 1st vid. skillz levels are close to even,
in the second one - difference is obvious, how much the teacher is good - have no idea without testing :)


That's hardly the point though here is it. That is supposed to be his Sanda student, so sure he probably has no push hands compared to the teacher. Are teachers not supposed to train with students or beginners ?

From youtube:
A nice little clip of Tian Jinlong pushing hands with one of the sanda lads he coaches.


When A BJJ teacher/ black belt rolls with a white with experience in the months they make it look easy too, especially if they are bigger and stronger. No one bangs on about it being easy. It's supposed to be! Same if a Judo teacher grabbed someone who had a couple months training and tossed them around.

The point is to show that you can demonstrate TCMA. Depending on the relative skill levels will dictate how clean and skillfull it looks, or the intensity will influence that and so on.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 10, 2017 2:54 am, edited 4 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Bao on Wed May 10, 2017 8:55 am

cloudz wrote:No real opinion about that of course.
But you can have an opinion on people prancing about peddling snake oil and selling bullshit under some pretence of "martial arts"- it's a cultural hobby for middle aged men, all's tickety boo.
Gotta love that. ;D


Lol! ;D
... no comment... 8-)
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 1:58 am

As a fat bald middle aged man, I couldn't be more offended.. I want my hobby back ! :D
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 2:03 am

Great demo (which is also how you would train them) of TCMA techniques here. No theatrics necessary.

Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby wiesiek on Thu May 11, 2017 4:35 am

..."The point is to show that you can demonstrate TCMA...."

You know, Cloudz, my opinion is, that you can demonstrate anything what you are really capable to do...:)
For good clear demo of the MA skilz you don`t need newbie or lo level practitioner as a tori,
you simply using your training partner and everything will go nice.

Be sure your skilz, dough, if you`re askin` somebody from the bystanders -
recently,
JMA master from Japan was demoing his deadly system in one famous shitty Warszawa`s district .
He asked two guys from the spectators crowd to attack him randomly,
to make it short:
he even hasn`t time to fart, - was really heavy beaten, landed in hospital.
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 6:07 am

Thanks, appreciate it. I agree.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 11, 2017 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby RobP3 on Thu May 11, 2017 6:11 am

I remember back in the early 80s when my first school started doing demos to drum up interest and for various Chinese groups at new year. Initially they were quite "martial" in nature, lots of form, push hands and application work, some of it choreographed to a degree, some of it more free form.

As things went on, however, demos started to look more like the OP. In short, they became more a venue to show off "special powers". I can't say that this was totally cultural, more a change of emphasis in the training and teaching, IMO. There was also a corresponding shift in marketing, I specifically remember the night we were told not to get the mats out to practice app work as it was "putting people off".

Personally these days I usually turn down demos. If people want to see what we do, come and train. Or at least in a demo I try and get the crowd involved in doing some exercises or something.You can't show "real fight" stuff, people either don't see what's going on or think you are a bully lol. People for the most part want to see some flashy entertainment
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Tom on Thu May 11, 2017 10:24 am

RobP3 wrote:[snip]Or at least in a demo I try and get the crowd involved in doing some exercises or something.You can't show "real fight" stuff, people either don't see what's going on or think you are a bully lol. People for the most part want to see some flashy entertainment


Oh yeah, there's nothing more flashy and exciting than watching slow press-ups and squats with heavy breathing. :o

:)
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 11, 2017 1:36 pm

cloudz wrote:Great demo (which is also how you would train them) of TCMA techniques here. No theatrics necessary.





The shortcoming in this clip is the passive student
He never attacks or defends
The teacher circles and then takes his time to set up the Chinna and then applies it with force
Any person with no training can do theses throws with little instruction once the hold is setup
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiwan martial arts demo

Postby Steve James on Thu May 11, 2017 2:08 pm

Well, is there a tcc video that everyone agreed on, ... :). So, I don't criticize, and everything has its place. The only question would be whether or how one would use that on Jon Jones or Randy Couture. It's always possible to extract what may be useful. Training for application of for being in a position to apply a technique is a separate matter. Arm bars (or qinna) work, check out Billy Robinson videos. But, you can't expect a resisting opponent to offer you a compromised position.
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