the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Did he use his fist?

Steve James wrote:Did he use his fist?

Yes, Sam hit him in the right side of his abdomen with a left-handed punch that came up short but projected into his body. Then Sam did some of his voodoo and the pain went away. He said it was like getting hit with a baseball bat. He asked Sam to do it so he could feel it. Not a good idea with Sam Tam.

Taste of Death wrote:

Steve James wrote:Did he use his fist?

Yes, Sam hit him in the right side of his abdomen with a left-handed punch that came up short but projected into his body. Then Sam did some of his voodoo and the pain went away. He said it was like getting hit with a baseball bat. He asked Sam to do it so he could feel it. Not a good idea with Sam Tam.

Any bruise? Broken rib? That would be more interesting for a MA perspective.

windwalker wrote:I have said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.
Tom, did feel this.

Now I confused. Tom - you felt it but it still was not interesting?

windwalker wrote:Yes I do agree some of the demos look cheesy, but one should remember in most cases its done in China,
for a Chinese audience. If one teacher shows something the others tend to show the same things.

They are all "demos" its a small aspect of a much lager process at work..many teachers use this aspect to demo a concept.

This makes sense but cheesiness aside most of it uses stooges who run up walls, fall over themselves & play dead to falsify martial ability. Sometimes it's group dynamics & playing along with a stooge.

Putting the stooges aside & keeping an open mind, I suspect your whole process that you & others talk about is a matter of mental conditioning. That said am happy to be proven wrong.

That said am happy to be proven wrong.

Why would anyone want to do this, you have proven to yourself that you are right.
Just wondering, do you ascribe the the belief and theory of "qi"
If so what do you feel it enables one to do, that can not be done with out it.

How old was Zhang at the time and is there any film of him around that time

wayne hansen wrote:How old was Zhang at the time and is there any film of him around that time

As Tom mentioned he was in his 80s at the time probably closer to 90,,,From my notes he was born in
1920.

Some of the other clips show him in his 90s.
The clip of him showing some of his form work he was in his 60s.
Over the yrs he's had different people wanting to write about him or film him for public.
Its only very recently has he really allowed this
preferring to remain privet, he is known in Beijing circles of IMA people..

He never seemed to age in my time with him, it seemed at some point like time caught up with him.
He is pushed to the park in a wheel chair but once there he seems to come alive, playing the form, ph and working with his students. although his family members and the older students make sure that he does not do to much.

The LKJ as mention a part of the practice not really the main part.
There are levels of interaction based on different things.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo

His way of teaching was through doing and feeling...even with the native speakers a lot
of what was done was hard to get. At the time of this clip he was 89 or 90.

Thanks Tom for clarifying. Btw I like zhang's videos of his forms and none of this is a reflection on him or how he teaches. He sounds very chinese which is something I am very familiar with.

Having been to China a couple of times I have also been through similar experiences. No I dont expect you to be a bull in a china shop or to dismiss the oportunity to learn better basics or touch hands. It does sound like you have made up your mind on LKJ. Most likely for the same reasons most others have.

I am always curious and always happy to let people test on me. There have been 4 occasions of friendly testing and nothing happened. I didn't mind these and it did not take anything away from meeting nice fellows who wanted to see if it works on me. Even my previous sifu would do the arm waving-people swaying-falling over effects but would not bother with these on me. Instead he would do other things that would blow me away.

There have been a few others who would profess to the world they could shoot chi balls and then apply every trick in the book to avoid doing it on me. Their students would bounce around and claim near god like powers. At times these guys would even be rude to others and dismiss fighting ability as external and not having any real skill. These guys are frauds who are misdirecting people & giving cma a bad name.

So windy why would I want to prove anything wrong or right? Because I dont want to believe in something that is rubbish. Does chi exist? Sure - the term means something to me but I know I probably only get about 20% of what it means. But the 20% I get is because I understand it & how it can be used to learn better. I don't believe it is very smart to claim knowing chi and its use unless it is understood and tested.

Taste of Death wrote:I trained with a 62 year old African American police officer today with decades of martial arts experience including kenpo, small circle jujitsu, tkd and other arts. He said the two heaviest blows he's taken were a kick from a kenpo master and a punch from Sam Tam. The big difference between the two was Sam did not touch him. My taiji/xingyi sifu Henry Look had been on the receiving end of Professor and Madame Yu's lkj and I have kung fu brothers who have witnessed and been affected by Sam Tam's no touch punch. I have never felt or seen such a thing but I don't think the people I train with are lying.

Not trying to be a smart arse but it sounds like an example of this effect:



That said it might be something completely different. If it is this I think it is awesome that Sam has picked up on how to do it & hopefully passes it on to others so it does not pass away with him.

I have not felt anything that is no touch that floored me but I have felt zero distance punches that cut through me like butter, left no mark and hurt for a few days. After being hit like that I would thank them & even repeated the excercise a few months later because it helped me on my learning path.

dspyrido wrote:
So windy why would I want to prove anything wrong or right? Because I dont want to believe in something that is rubbish. Does chi exist? Sure - the term means something to me but I know I probably only get about 20% of what it means. But the 20% I get is because I understand it & how it can be used to learn better. I don't believe it is very smart to claim knowing chi and its use unless it is understood and tested.

My point was that the underpinnings of the process depends on things like concept of qi. I don't see how it's possible to accept one without accepting the other parts of it. I have tested my own understanding and abilities in this area.

I'm currently working with some professor s I know in Taiwan aligning the process and explanations with physics as much as possible.

I am sure that anybody who's worked in CMA for any length of time has felt things and seen things that there may be no real explanations for at this time.

I have heard all the reasons given by people who say it hasn't or doesn't work on them. I feel most of them I could explain the reasonings of why it didn't work. I think for most it would be something understandable given the process by which it's said to work.

In my view it's a small part of a much larger process but one that gets the most press. Sometimes misunderstood even by those who feel they have a high ability with it.

There are two parts one is to develop a skill the second is to understand how to use it, it's not the same.
A bad mistake to make for some who feel it is.

windwalker wrote:My point was that the underpinnings of the process depends on things like concept of qi. I don't see how it's possible to accept one without accepting the other parts of it. I have tested my own understanding and abilities in this area.

How have you tested it? Have you stood in front of many sport fighters (sanda, mma, boxing, kickboxing you name) and said "lets go for it"?

As for chi in the learning process for martial arts - I know many great fighters that would make mince meat of all instructors that I have met that spend a lot of time talking about chi in a class.

There are also a few ima instructors (native chinese) & very traditionally trained with real fight experience that barely touch on chi in their teachings. Without a doubt they would also tear apart the same guys who like to talk about chi.

The use of chi as a learning method is not required to be great fighting. In fact it is more of a hindrance for many because they are chasing a dream instead of concentrating on the basics, timing/distancing and technique. I like to think of it as something that is taken into consideration after the foundations have been put in place.

You mentioned qi how did you test it , what functions did it give you that you did not have without it

windwalker wrote:You mentioned qi how did you test it , what functions did it give you that you did not have without it

Nice try but dont avoid the question.

I have stated the chi construct when considered with martial arts...

The use of chi as a learning method is not required to be great fighting. In fact it is more of a hindrance for many because they are chasing a dream instead of concentrating on the basics, timing/distancing and technique. I like to think of it as something that is taken into consideration after the foundations have been put in place.

You mentioned chi and then said

I have tested my own understanding and abilities in this area.

How have you test it to understand your own abilities? Are you even talking about martial arts or about something else?

"I do not think these people are lying, they are self-brainwashed", said Xu.