Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

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Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby C.J.W. on Tue May 16, 2017 7:29 pm

I mentioned in another thread that most (not all, of course) CMAists do not know how to deal with flurries of punches to the head, and that the typical application training taught in most CMA systems usually begin with some form of compliant wrist or arm contact, or against sloppy unrealistic attacks.

In contrast, Muay Chaiya, a traditional Muay Thai system from southern Thailand, seems to have effective techniques as well as a reflexive training method that teaches students how to handle fast punches to the head.


Starting at around 1:47





P.S. Notice how the techniques and drills they practice are directly applicable in sparring or fighting. When they fight, they look like...well...Muay Chaiya fighters. No boxing or kickboxing.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby wiesiek on Wed May 17, 2017 12:59 am

It`s looks, that whole TCMA "open circles" are suffering from much toooo big materials to digest.
To be good fighter you don`t need more than 1-2-3 left and right polished to perfection.
Rest is hidden in physical background / I`m not diggin` in mental here which is equally important/ .
I`m not TCMA expert, dough :)
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby nicklinjm on Wed May 17, 2017 1:14 am

Some of the two-person drills in that video are fantastic for ingraining the necessary reactions to defend yourself. In TCMA, I would guess that northern Praying Mantis and probably several other styles have similar material, it's just a question of whether they actually drill it this way.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby Ashura on Wed May 17, 2017 1:47 am




wiesiek wrote:It`s looks, that whole TCMA "open circles" are suffering from much toooo big materials to digest.
To be good fighter you don`t need more than 1-2-3 left and right polished to perfection.
Rest is hidden in physical background / I`m not diggin` in mental here which is equally important/ .
I`m not TCMA expert, dough :)



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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby cloudz on Wed May 17, 2017 2:19 am

They looked like boxers/kickboxers, Sanda, MT, MMA when on the heavy bag - which came up just after the drills. Or better yet; they looked like fighters, shock, horror.
The drills were fine I've done similar in Wu tai chi (CTH HK line), but I wouldn't put a lot of stock in them or on the no contact sparring being definitive in relations to how they would look in higher pressure fights against other people doing fight training.

I didn't see any fighting - is there a time stamp for it? So how can you say what they look like. Where's the fight, I saw some no/soft touch sparring, which is fine. I reckon we would see an MT flavour and style.

This irrational mindset over looking like boxers and kickboxers has to be overcome and left behind. There are different issues to overcome, not being able to accept what certain striking looks like in a high pressure fight is just utter nonsense in the end. No TCMA guy will ever get to a higher level of fighting without ditching that mindset and embracing all martial art and pugalistic realities.. Only then is there a chance of any kind of transcendence by someone who may rise to the challenges.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 17, 2017 2:40 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby Bao on Wed May 17, 2017 2:45 am

cloudz wrote:The drills were fine I've done similar in Wu tai chi (CTH HK line), but I wouldn't put a lot of stock in them or on the no contact sparring being definitive in relations to how they would look in higher pressure fights against other people doing fight training.


They are virtually the same as one of my Bagua teachers taught. In tai chi we tend to do it a little bit different though.

I didn't see any fighting - is there a time stamp for it? So how can you say what they look like. Where's the fight. I reckon we would see an MT flavour and style.


The second clip

This irrational mindset over looking like boxers and kickboxers has to be overcome and left behind. There are different issues to overcome, not being able to accept what certain striking looks like in a high pressure fight is just utter nonsense in the end. No TCMA guy will ever get to a higher level of fighting without ditching that mindset and embracing all martial art and pugalistic realities.. Only then is there a chance of any kind of transcendence by someone who may rise to the challenges.


Agreed.

some random thoughts only, not addressed to anyone in particular... :

Yet you don't need to look exactly like boxers in general when you fight for real. The top boxers don't look like exactly like common boxers. Ali fighting looks like Ali fighting, Tyson looks like Tyson fighting. They look very different from each other when they fight. So I do think that there's a lot of room for a personal expression. Also, trying to keep the look of a certain style is the opposite towards personalization. And if we speak about TCMA, chinese thinking is all about simplification so development into the direction to a more simple and general fighting style is very much what TCMA looks for. Most TCMA practitioners cross train different styles and methods, so TCMA in it's essence is not a bunch of different styles, but more a form of MMA and about discovering and re-invention. Yet, there are some things that you learn and can't really leave behind, like for the fact that a balanced body fighting will look like a balanced body fighting... So what you bring from your style into a fight is IMHO more a matter of qualities you gained from developing a body method than specific postures, a certain look etc.
Last edited by Bao on Wed May 17, 2017 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby Tiga Pukul on Wed May 17, 2017 2:49 am

Although some of the drills look really nice, they are meant to ingrain a SPECIFIC reaction for defending yourself. If the style dictates to cover up, stay in same position and 'block' attack, then yeah that's the reaction you want to ingrain. If your style is about footwork and proper positioning in additioning to covering yourself, i think you need to ingrain other stuff.

But yeah, the speed and randomness is nice of the drills.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby RobP3 on Wed May 17, 2017 3:03 am

Tiga Pukul wrote:Although some of the drills look really nice, they are meant to ingrain a SPECIFIC reaction for defending yourself. If the style dictates to cover up, stay in same position and 'block' attack, then yeah that's the reaction you want to ingrain. If your style is about footwork and proper positioning in additioning to covering yourself, i think you need to ingrain other stuff.

But yeah, the speed and randomness is nice of the drills.


Good observation. They are learning to be reactive, they should be learning to be opportunistic
Last edited by RobP3 on Wed May 17, 2017 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby cloudz on Wed May 17, 2017 3:13 am

Bao,

I checked out the second clip and only saw no touch / soft touch sparring, so I assumed maybe wrongly that that was what was there.
Could you give me a time stamp as I don't have time right now to watch the entirety of the clips as I am at work.

thanks

ps. your random thoughts sound like good ones to me.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 17, 2017 3:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby Bao on Wed May 17, 2017 6:42 am

I don't know, I think I saw some sparring, but I didn't think much about how heavy it was.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby everything on Wed May 17, 2017 7:41 am

it makes me think of
- tony jaa
- keysi
- xingyi quan's pao quan

like the random thoughts too.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby lars on Wed May 17, 2017 1:30 pm

Some of the beginning applications look quite alike to some we do in the style of bagua I train. Also a beginning of footwork.
The "flurry" exercises we also do quite similar. But obviously just as a step. Theres many ways to build on it, involving moving and positioning among many, and I imagine that they also do that work.
Good observation. They are learning to be reactive, they should be learning to be opportunistic

Do you mean because they only defend themselves?
If so, then that is what I mean with that being the first step to build on. put in footwork, positioning, feints, ways of using the defense to attack, etc. and I believe it will also teach you how to be opportunistic if I understand the word right. But a method of ingraining reflexes and body memory, especially to save you if surprised or caught offguard.
Or do you mean to learn to not be in the way of a flurry like that? To have positioned yourself better before or attacked before?
It is also a brilliant way of conditioning the arms ;D
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby C.J.W. on Wed May 17, 2017 6:28 pm

cloudz wrote:I didn't see any fighting - is there a time stamp for it? So how can you say what they look like. Where's the fight, I saw some no/soft touch sparring, which is fine. I reckon we would see an MT flavour and style.

This irrational mindset over looking like boxers and kickboxers has to be overcome and left behind. There are different issues to overcome, not being able to accept what certain striking looks like in a high pressure fight is just utter nonsense in the end. No TCMA guy will ever get to a higher level of fighting without ditching that mindset and embracing all martial art and pugalistic realities.. Only then is there a chance of any kind of transcendence by someone who may rise to the challenges.


There are plenty of clips on Youtube of traditional Muay Thai guys fighting in the ring or engage in heavy sparring. Feel free to check them out if you have any doubts.

The point I was trying to make is how these Chaiya guys do NOT look like your typical boxers or kickboxers when they spar. They are able to apply the techniques taught in their style against fast incoming strikes and still exhibit the style's characteristics and flavor. That is obviously a cut above many TCMAists who do not practice free-sparring or learn how to handle realistic attacks.

In the second clip I posted, two guys from the audience were invited on stage to spar with the Chaiya fighter. While it's only sparring, it nonetheless shows the Chaiya guy's skill in defending against free punches and kicks. Even if the sparring session was to escalate, chances are he'd still dominate.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Wed May 17, 2017 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 17, 2017 6:57 pm

C.J.W. wrote:The point I was trying to make is how these Chaiya guys do NOT look like your typical boxers or kickboxers when they spar. They are able to apply the techniques taught in their style against fast incoming strikes and still exhibit the style's characteristics and flavor. That is obviously a cut above many TCMAists who do not practice free-sparring or learn how to handle realistic attacks.

Out of the recent real fight videos, none of the TCMA fighters showed any bridging, trapping, unbalancing, control at point of contact, etc. that some say is the difference between TCMA and "kickboxing." -shrug-
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby C.J.W. on Wed May 17, 2017 8:53 pm

Second half of the clip shows the same guy sparring at higher intensity:

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