Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby Steve James on Wed May 17, 2017 9:21 pm

Well, in the 80s, it began to be considered good advice to learn how to deal with MT kicks. But, afa hands, there are systems to covering up. Unfortunately, this vid deals with a ring situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niXLikDoUiM
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 18, 2017 12:31 am

I remember when Salmut Payakaruen(not sure of the spelling)a Thai kickboxing champ took up western boxing.
He fought Jeff Feneck in Jeffs first big fight
Jeff was a street fighter from marrickville and not one of the good ones.
He fought under the title of the Marrickville Mauler
And that's what he did to Salmut
The hands of Thai boxing couldn't even handle an average boxer.
Jeff went on to win a couple of world titles and was robbed of a couple more
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby cloudz on Thu May 18, 2017 1:51 am

C.J.W. wrote:
cloudz wrote:I didn't see any fighting - is there a time stamp for it? So how can you say what they look like. Where's the fight, I saw some no/soft touch sparring, which is fine. I reckon we would see an MT flavour and style.

This irrational mindset over looking like boxers and kickboxers has to be overcome and left behind. There are different issues to overcome, not being able to accept what certain striking looks like in a high pressure fight is just utter nonsense in the end. No TCMA guy will ever get to a higher level of fighting without ditching that mindset and embracing all martial art and pugalistic realities.. Only then is there a chance of any kind of transcendence by someone who may rise to the challenges.


There are plenty of clips on Youtube of traditional Muay Thai guys fighting in the ring or engage in heavy sparring. Feel free to check them out if you have any doubts.

The point I was trying to make is how these Chaiya guys do NOT look like your typical boxers or kickboxers when they spar. They are able to apply the techniques taught in their style against fast incoming strikes and still exhibit the style's characteristics and flavor. That is obviously a cut above many TCMAists who do not practice free-sparring or learn how to handle realistic attacks.

In the second clip I posted, two guys from the audience were invited on stage to spar with the Chaiya fighter. While it's only sparring, it nonetheless shows the Chaiya guy's skill in defending against free punches and kicks. Even if the sparring session was to escalate, chances are he'd still dominate.


I think this idea of "typical boxers and kickboxers" is just a nice figment of peoples imaginations. You saw some basic defenses like covering the head and parries and deflections etc. and you think these aren't taught in those systems. Of course they are. I saw lot's in the clips you posted and the one marvin did that covers plenty that;s in boxing and kickboxing, MT, Sanda and yes TCMA too !

There are TCMA schools that train, spar and even fight, they use a mix of traditional and modern training, not so different to all this. All this discriminatiing against some kinds of combat because it sometimes doesn't look like some ideal is irrational and counter productive.

As I said in another thread it's all relative; where you sit is what you'll see and any engagemnent is dictated by relative factors like who is better, trained longer, perhaps who is stronger, combined with intensity and you can go on and on. This can all dictate the stylistic factors that arise.

All you can really do is train in good ways; the training in these clips IS all well and good but it's nothing new fangled or revolutionary. Taken to it's conclusion these guys would end up no different than Muay Thai guys, because MT came from Muay traditional arts, just like boxing came from Western traditional arts. These had all similar content, you see here for defending the head, it doesn't all dissapear in a puff of smoke in the way you seem to think with your concept of "typical boxing and kickboxing".
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 18, 2017 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 18, 2017 7:33 am

double post
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 18, 2017 7:36 am

cloudz wrote:I think this idea of "typical boxers and kickboxers" is just a nice figment of peoples imaginations. You saw some basic defenses like covering the head and parries and deflections etc. and you think these aren't taught in those systems. Of course they are. I saw lot's in the clips you posted and the one marvin did that covers plenty that;s in boxing and kickboxing, MT, Sanda and yes TCMA too !

There are TCMA schools that train, spar and even fight, they use a mix of traditional and modern training, not so different to all this. All this discriminatiing against some kinds of combat because it sometimes doesn't look like some ideal is irrational and counter productive.

As I said in another thread it's all relative; where you sit is what you'll see and any engagemnent is dictated by relative factors like who is better, trained longer, perhaps who is stronger, combined with intensity and you can go on and on. This can all dictate the stylistic factors that arise.

All you can really do is train in good ways; the training in these clips IS all well and good but it's nothing new fangled or revolutionary. Taken to it's conclusion these guys would end up no different than Muay Thai guys, because MT came from Muay traditional arts, just like boxing came from Western traditional arts. These had all similar content, you see here for defending the head, it doesn't all dissapear in a puff of smoke in the way you seem to think with your concept of "typical boxing and kickboxing".


Looks like someone's a bit touchy feely when it comes to "typical boxing and kickboxing." ;)

The bottom line is this: I'm not here to argue how unique and great this particular style is, or convince anyone that it is superior to CMA in anyway -- heck, I'm a CMAist myself! The point I've been getting at (and you seem to have missed) is that these Chaiya guys train hard against resistance and can apply their moves under pressure, which is a quality that many CMAists (perhaps 9 out of 10) lack these days. The lack of reality and resistance in training is what directly contributed to the epic "CMA fails" video clips that have gone viral recently.


P.S. I did not jump to the conclusion that boxing/kickboxing are different from Chaiya based on a few quick looks.



And an article written by Antonio Graceffo, a.k.a. The Brooklyn Monk, on Muay Chaiya. Antonio is a martial arts scholar/practitioner who has researched, documented, and studied dozens of traditional and modern Asian martial arts, especially those in Southeast Asia.

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/08/28/muay-thai-chaiya-it%E2%80%99s-nothing-like-muay-thai/
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby cloudz on Thu May 18, 2017 9:28 am

Have you come across any of these guys fighting an MT guy. Let's see it if it's so different.
I mean it's Thailand, these guys fight and there's every opportunity to. Plenty of them should have competed out there.

Can we see this different style of fighting in a proper match up then, then we can properly ascertain how different it really is ?
I don't want the inconclusive research and opinion pieces I want the smoking gun please.

Systems do have differences of course, I've never denied that. Buy not so much that they overcome the similarities inherent in the fighting and formats being discussed; to the extent they no longer look like "this" or "that"... Individuals have stylistic differences, as do systems but they'll be outweighed by similarities the more someone fights (and trains for fights) and the higher levels they go - IOW the better they become at fighting other people from whatever backgrounds they have. Take Machida, some nice "bits" recognisable from Karate, but there's as much if not much more that looks like other styles and systems we can cite.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 18, 2017 9:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby everything on Thu May 18, 2017 10:33 am

Not promoting a style or disparaging CMA. But. Within boxing, which someone pointed out doesn't actually consist of only one style, there are fascinating sub styles. I don't really know them but a quick search brought up a few:

- There is the peek-a-boo that Tyson used in a genius way.

- Mayweather is a defensive genius.

- Pacquiao is aggressive and according to Mayweather has a style of setting traps other fighters get caught in.

Tyson was very specifically trained in his approach/style, but I'm not sure about some of the other famous guys.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 18, 2017 6:26 pm

cloudz wrote:Have you come across any of these guys fighting an MT guy. Let's see it if it's so different.
I mean it's Thailand, these guys fight and there's every opportunity to. Plenty of them should have competed out there.

Can we see this different style of fighting in a proper match up then, then we can properly ascertain how different it really is ?
I don't want the inconclusive research and opinion pieces I want the smoking gun please.

Systems do have differences of course, I've never denied that. Buy not so much that they overcome the similarities inherent in the fighting and formats being discussed; to the extent they no longer look like "this" or "that"... Individuals have stylistic differences, as do systems but they'll be outweighed by similarities the more someone fights (and trains for fights) and the higher levels they go - IOW the better they become at fighting other people from whatever backgrounds they have. Take Machida, some nice "bits" recognisable from Karate, but there's as much if not much more that looks like other styles and systems we can cite.


Again, you are missing my point, Mr. Cloudz.

You remind me of those MMA guys who believe they've figured out the ultimate reality of fighting and come to the matter-of-fact conclusion that all real fighting looks the same, and it happens to be they way they fight. I only wish it were that simple...

Since all average human beings are anatomically the same, there's no doubt that there will be movements universally found in various systems that APPEAR similar. Take a simple roundhouse kick for example, the taekwondo version will look similar to those done in MT, Sanda, kickboxing, and any other art that includes the kick in its repetoire -- to the untrained eye, that is.

While a common move found in different styles may all look alike to the layman, to a well-trained fighter or martial artist, they should be able to tell the difference by observing the subtleties, which is what we as MAists should strive for if we wish to improve and refine our skills.

Too many MAists choose to focus on the similarities these days rather than the differences -- too much comparing, but little contrasting.

It's just like in CIMA where there are practitioners who believe that Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji are all the same. While I'm not saying that they are necessarily wrong, but these days I'm much more impressed by the small number of "specialists" who can show me the subtle differences between them as opposed to the garden-variety "general practitioners" who've only managed to get the rough idea but missed out on the details.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby windwalker on Thu May 18, 2017 7:16 pm

everything wrote:Not promoting a style or disparaging CMA. But. Within boxing, which someone pointed out doesn't actually consist of only one style, there are fascinating sub styles. I don't really know them but a quick search brought up a few:

- There is the peek-a-boo that Tyson used in a genius way.

- Mayweather is a defensive genius.

- Pacquiao is aggressive and according to Mayweather has a style of setting traps other fighters get caught in.

Tyson was very specifically trained in his approach/style, but I'm not sure about some of the other famous guys.


IMO it would be more correct to say they all box using boxing methods adapted to their personalities and physical attributes.

CMA is the same thing, only very few IMO really get to the point were what they do is really part of them.
This is why so many talk of looking like vs talking of doing....and how its done... a boxer due to the training and how they train can only box, there is no separation between the actor and action. Its only possible to talk of this separation by those who have not become formless through their training, still feeling they'er doing or maintaining some type of form or "looking like"

So many students come and learn for six months, then they claim they learned from me. I will not allow that. I only certify certain people. They don't have the aspect of wude (martial ethics武德). No respect. A student learns halfway somewhere and then they start changing. They make their own style. That's why we end up with so many new styles.

"Are they really making anything that much different compared to other old styles? Maybe not. Kung fu, after all, is just two hands, two feet and the body. That's it. Different styles specialize on different techniques and usually these people don't pick them up. They don't know how to use them. For example, tongbei is different than regular kung fu.

It's the way they use the power, the way they deliver momentum and striking force. That's what makes it outstanding.

I don't say that these new styles are bad kung fu or anything like that. I always say 'Whatever you do, I don't want. Whatever I do and you don't know - that's how we win.'"

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/ ... rticle=661
'
Whatever you do, I don't want. Whatever I do and you don't know - that's how we win.


When we talk of mantis, white crane, white eyebrow ect...we are talking about things that for the most part others do not know or are not aware of and are quite distinct from each other. IME at the higher levels contrary to what some have said this distinction is even more pronounced

This is a very different concept than in the west were the idea of mix and match, tends to be what ever worked in the ring as seen in the last events.

In CMA what are called traditional schools things are not really shared in the public, nor among CMA tourist just passing through.
IMO maybe the problem for some is that they don't understand the difference between being tourist just passing through, and being a practitioner.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 18, 2017 7:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby Strange on Fri May 19, 2017 2:11 am

i think the vid shows good and realistic practice

but i must add that for correct cma punch "blocking"/counter technique
according to cma "theory"/principle is a maximum of 2 punches
preferably you are able to stop your opponent at one punch.
(actual technique would depend on what school you are studying)
(if you can stop your opponent at half punch, please tell me, cos i do not want to fight you)

不招不架 只有一下
if you keep covering up, you can protect yourself
but it also means that you are in the backfoot, at the weaker position
if you go deeper, it also mean that you are slower than your opponent

so please do not misunderstand to mean that it is correct practice/instruction
to keep blocking and covering under a barrage of punches.
if like this, you always give the upperhand to your opponent.

if an opponent can punch you and you are not fast enough to counter
this usually means you have lost in skill level already
Last edited by Strange on Fri May 19, 2017 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby Overlord on Fri May 19, 2017 2:25 am

「俗雲 : 【拳打不知】,是迅雷不及掩耳。
所謂 : 【不招不架,只是一下,犯了招架,就有十下】。」

This passage actually involves three contexts:
1, You are lighting fast, so the other person does not know how you win.
2, No parry, no block, you enter and KO the opponent.
3, You have better angle and position, enter and excute a good combo.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby cloudz on Fri May 19, 2017 4:09 am

C.J.W. wrote:
cloudz wrote:Have you come across any of these guys fighting an MT guy. Let's see it if it's so different.
I mean it's Thailand, these guys fight and there's every opportunity to. Plenty of them should have competed out there.

Can we see this different style of fighting in a proper match up then, then we can properly ascertain how different it really is ?
I don't want the inconclusive research and opinion pieces I want the smoking gun please.

Systems do have differences of course, I've never denied that. Buy not so much that they overcome the similarities inherent in the fighting and formats being discussed; to the extent they no longer look like "this" or "that"... Individuals have stylistic differences, as do systems but they'll be outweighed by similarities the more someone fights (and trains for fights) and the higher levels they go - IOW the better they become at fighting other people from whatever backgrounds they have. Take Machida, some nice "bits" recognisable from Karate, but there's as much if not much more that looks like other styles and systems we can cite.


Again, you are missing my point, Mr. Cloudz.

You remind me of those MMA guys who believe they've figured out the ultimate reality of fighting and come to the matter-of-fact conclusion that all real fighting looks the same, and it happens to be they way they fight. I only wish it were that simple...

Since all average human beings are anatomically the same, there's no doubt that there will be movements universally found in various systems that APPEAR similar. Take a simple roundhouse kick for example, the taekwondo version will look similar to those done in MT, Sanda, kickboxing, and any other art that includes the kick in its repetoire -- to the untrained eye, that is.

While a common move found in different styles may all look alike to the layman, to a well-trained fighter or martial artist, they should be able to tell the difference by observing the subtleties, which is what we as MAists should strive for if we wish to improve and refine our skills.

Too many MAists choose to focus on the similarities these days rather than the differences -- too much comparing, but little contrasting.

It's just like in CIMA where there are practitioners who believe that Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji are all the same. While I'm not saying that they are necessarily wrong, but these days I'm much more impressed by the small number of "specialists" who can show me the subtle differences between them as opposed to the garden-variety "general practitioners" who've only managed to get the rough idea but missed out on the details.


Ok, no problem. Your research didn't go that far then I take it. But why does it have to be either black or white, either the same or different. You made it binary, not me. Then you accuse me of believing "it's all the same", because I simply recognise similarity and disagree that there's something really (significantly) different.. I have said multiple times now I believe in individual style, that systems produce flavours and a grey area - try reading some of my other recent posts on the subject. I don't think fighters fight all the same, but some might look more similar than others. But I do believe a punch looks like a punch and a kick a kick, a reap a reap etc ! The small technical differences you mention don't hold up on a large scale under pressure, but that doesn't mean an individual or two won't have this or that. But ultimately there are so many KF styles and other styles being openly practiced, that in the end these smaller differences won't uniformly stand out the more people train for fighting and against other trained fighters. In less difficult conditions a lot more may appear and stand out.. But also no one knows what the ideal or expectation is supposed to be - stylistically, for KF in the high pressure trained environment. So maybe there just really isn't just the one 'look'. I have never pretended to have all the answers as you suggest. I haven't watched a lot of MMA for a number of years, but I do still watch sometimes. I did watch a fair bit for a while, but I'm not out to be an "mma fighter" as such.

I can wait another 10 years if I have to for you to get my point and the unicorn clip you all are waiting for. It's ok wanting different things, we could still agree. But like I said, I can wait longer. I have been on and am on just the track I want to be, and if you are, then that's good too. But that's not the point of this thread and not what I am disagreeing about. From the minute I made my critique you've changed the goalposts a couple times at least. :P

I'll be happy when you have something concrete to show other TCMA guys doing the Sanda / MMA thing like me. Because all people like me want is convincing of your paradigm and see it at work.. I think the one (paradigm) I have put forward is widely supported by real events and progression and is reasonable and allows for a grey area on how a style can look in any given environment etc. See my thread in video links WC vs. Kickboxer and other threads where I've been posting lately. So you thinking I even disagree with most of your ideas and stuff is just your mistake. I've been very clear what I disagreed with and why, but you have to make it about other things to wriggle your way to something else, but then I don't have any problem as such, so we wind up where we are.. Ok whatever, I'm not here to tell people how and what to practice for in a wider sense. But when the discussions turns to this, then sure I have something to say. It's not all there is, or all I care about. Sure I may have an ego just like every other human being, but I'm not been at this topic to big myself up or or put others down or any of that crap - I genuinely want to see better levels all round in TCMA and if that includes better stylistic attributes then that's a fine goal that I am all for. I haven't spent 15 years doing CIMA to not want to have it rub of in my movement qualities and shape(s), for example and other things.

I think you can focus on differences and or similarities, in the end what matters is what works for you, where and when. So in that sense I tend to look at things form a neutral standpoint when it comes to techniques - I like traditional/ Chinese ones, but I also like techniques from wherever too. I'm not going to apologize fot that because I have made a good and strong effort to mine TCC and TCMA for as much as I have been able to fit with me for fighting and training; be it strategy, tactics, techs and so on. All work in progress which will continue no doubt. That I have come to like and appreciate things outside CMA too, and have always been happy to cross train in whatever is nothing for me to worry about. So whatever those things are from or what time period is not something that concerns me ultimately.

When you say "typical boxing and kickboxing" in the context you did - it just has no real meaning in my opinion. They are just rulesets in the end - kick and strike any way you damn like. Can't beat them with gloves, good luck without them. Yea I forgot - dirty fighting! :D

I can put forward a version of events and a picture of how things generally work/ look like which can be supported by clips and experiences of a wide range of TCMA people and Combat Sport people. Western and Eastern.

We're all free to do what we like with our practices and all that good stuff. Just don't think you'll get much better at fighting without mixing and cross training with the people that do fight/ have fought competitively whoever they are, whatever they do. And no one does that without have it rubbing off on them.

Happy Training
Last edited by cloudz on Fri May 19, 2017 8:10 am, edited 14 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 19, 2017 8:51 am

C.J.W. wrote:You remind me of those MMA guys who believe they've figured out the ultimate reality of fighting and come to the matter-of-fact conclusion that all real fighting looks the same, and it happens to be they way they fight. I only wish it were that simple...

I find the opposite. Many of the top MMA trainers and fighters have traditional martial arts backgrounds and respect them. They are open to new ideas and concepts to fighting, as this is their full time job. They say MMA strategies, concepts, and knowledge are growing, as MMA is relatively young. They say MMA today will not be the same in years from now.

They are more humble and respect their opponents, when it comes to actual fighting. Because, they fight often against other trained fighters and know they can lose their next fight. Most of the time, they say they are not taking their opponent lightly and not looking ahead of their next fight.

C.J.W. wrote:Take a simple roundhouse kick for example, the taekwondo version will look similar to those done in MT, Sanda, kickboxing, and any other art that includes the kick in its repetoire -- to the untrained eye, that is.

Most people understand there are variations in roundhouse kicks. But, it is still a kick. A punch is still a punch. A more powerful kick or punch is worthless if you can't land it on your opponent. Pick the roundhouse kick that is most effective for you and learn how to apply it in a real fight (e.g., setup, timing, etc.).

C.J.W. wrote:While a common move found in different styles may all look alike to the layman, to a well-trained fighter or martial artist, they should be able to tell the difference by observing the subtleties, which is what we as MAists should strive for if we wish to improve and refine our skills.

Many times, beginners to high level fighters know the same techniques (e.g., to kick, punch, throw, etc.) However, there are levels to fighting. The elite fighters know how to apply these techniques using strategy, positioning, control, etc., in a real fight.

C.J.W. wrote:Too many MAists choose to focus on the similarities these days rather than the differences -- too much comparing, but little contrasting.

As mentioned by others, different fighters will have their own flavor. However, all fights will have distance, timing, positioning, etc. How or if a fighter controls these elements in a fight will determine how successful they land their techniques and the outcome of the fight.

I enjoy learning about the differences between TCMA and MMA. However, many times the so-called differences are really a lack of understanding of higher level MMA or fighting.

Strange wrote:不招不架 只有一下
if you keep covering up, you can protect yourself
but it also means that you are in the backfoot, at the weaker position
if you go deeper, it also mean that you are slower than your opponent

so please do not misunderstand to mean that it is correct practice/instruction
to keep blocking and covering under a barrage of punches.
if like this, you always give the upperhand to your opponent.

I agree. Only covering up and taking punches on the arms is not showing a lot of skill.

Overlord wrote:俗雲 : 【拳打不知】,是迅雷不及掩耳。
所謂 : 【不招不架,只是一下,犯了招架,就有十下】。」

This passage actually involves three contexts:
1, You are lighting fast, so the other person does not know how you win.
2, No parry, no block, you enter and KO the opponent.
3, You have better angle and position, enter and excute a good combo.

Thanks. I like to learn more about CMA concepts and strategies that apply to fighting.

As you get older, you will get slower. So, it’s better to also have positioning and timing. One example of #2 is slipping a punch and simultaneously throwing a counter punch. Regarding #3, one example is left jab (setup punch) move to the right, get an advantageous position, then throw the right hand.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon May 22, 2017 7:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby Steve James on Fri May 19, 2017 10:05 am

Only covering up and taking punches on the arms is not showing a lot of skill.


It shows more skill than allowing oneself to get hit in the head. It's not a goal; it's a defense, especially after one is hurt or before one has enough skill to skillfully avoid getting hit.

From a tcc perspective, blocking or covering up are no-nos. However, from the practitioner's perspective, the problem is going from "unskilled to skilled." And there's no upper limit to skilled. Mayweather covers up when he wants to, and launches attacks from that position.

Anyway, my point wasn't to advocate covering up. My point was that if that was a last ditch method that worked against rapid punches. Ideally ..., but ideal is rare. Take for example the muay thai round kick. One can ask "What is the tcc response?" or one can ask "What is an effective defense?"
Last edited by Steve James on Fri May 19, 2017 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traditional Muay Thai (Chaiya) against rapid punches

Postby everything on Fri May 19, 2017 10:23 am

I agree and also agree about the I don't care part on the other thread.

Technical side comment:
I'm not a boxer and don't know anything about boxing, but it doesn't seem like Mayweather typically covers up. He uses his left shoulder left arm (low) and right arm (high), does a lot of rolls and evasions. He seems to have an insane ability to know where the opponent will punch before he launches.

Rant:
If you mainly use jabs, hooks, crosses, uppercuts, etc. you are probably doing boxing. Doesn't matter if it's defensive or aggressive, outside or inside. Who cares what it looks like. Everyone is different. Same thing with the 8 energies. All of those tools have utility. I'm sure we've seen bad fighting at school or on Jerry Springer or whatever. People very naturally do some dirty boxing and some bad wrestling, a lot of PUSHing and shoving and twisting, hair pulling, etc.. No technical jabs, peek-a-boo, etc. If you're not trying to win the UFC, any improvement over instinctive dirty boxing or bad wrestling is "technical" and could theoretically helped you if you continued "fighting" (which is stupid to do ... which kind of leads to doing it more safely as sport ... and then sport-optimized techniques...)
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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