MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Kettlebells4U on Sun May 21, 2017 7:51 am

Subitai wrote: "They"..... would mistakenly believe that only Trained Fighters are dangerous. That is the worst thinking you could possibly spread.


I completely agree, it's the intention to harm that is the true danger. Look at the worst serial killers none of them had any martial / combat training, but the intent to kill and no restrictions.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 21, 2017 10:46 am

Just curious what is his background and what is larping
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun May 21, 2017 12:51 pm

This guy was dorm mates with a bunch of my best buddies and I drank beers with him a few times way before he was pro. Anyway, so much for the Larkin video. Brass knuckles, bottles, multiple attackers, etc...He survived a clearly potentially lethal situation, and I can't believe that his training was irrelevant.

Story starts at 1:56

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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby yeniseri on Sun May 21, 2017 6:25 pm

windwalker wrote:On August 1, 2003, after a hit and run driver crashed into Gong's parked car in the Fairtex Gym parking lot in San Francisco, Gong pursued the car on foot. Gong caught up and confronted the driver, who was still in his car at a nearby intersection. Witnesses say the driver then shot Gong at point blank range and fled in his vehicle. Gong was pronounced dead at the scene.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Gong

No doubt that Gong was confident but he lacked a vision that would allow him to think beyond the initial encounter. Remember that evil does not play by fair rules. Enemies of freedom operate like that!

They are different animals in that Gong assessed (incorrectly) that he was supposed to get up in there and do his thing according to the rules of sport that he was conditioned to dealing with and he appeared not to go beyond that neurological conditioning of his endeavour. Evil does not play by those rules.
What MCMAP does have is a goal of providing cutting edge input into the most likely scenarios that one would encounter in a combat situation and the training is to that end. They have even codified the training into an actual MOS so there is a continuoue schema for betterment and team cohesion. They even add the raised heart rate (variable) along with the 'testing phase' trails to "raise the bar" so all can learn to be in the mode for immediate action for self defense and this is where the adrenaline counts

I have been in a few situations where at the moment, I could have beat a mofo.. ;D down like a rabid dog but I disengaged when I sensed that something was not right.
I am just a jolly dunce eating ice cream (Hagen Daz rum raison) at that) with a Buddha belly ;D
Last edited by yeniseri on Sun May 21, 2017 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby windwalker on Sun May 21, 2017 7:42 pm

What MCMAP does have is a goal of providing cutting edge input into the most likely scenarios that one would encounter in a combat situation and the training is to that end. They have even codified the training into an actual MOS so there is a continuoue schema for betterment and team cohesion. They even add the raised heart rate (variable) along with the 'testing phase' trails to "raise the bar" so all can learn to be in the mode for immediate action for self defense and this is where the adrenaline counts


When I was in they really didn't have anything so formalized. We had things like SERE, French Commando Training ect. Which indirectly touched on the things you've mentioned. Also worked with and in support of 7th and 10th groups SF. very unique individuals with highly trained skill sets.

Met the Mr Gong, a while back.
Reading what happened it was something that probably he could not have stopped himself from doing.
From our brief encounter didn't seem like it was in his personality.

My point was that often times people can not get past their conditioning.

The OP "the difference between self defense and sport fighting".

IMO, One is a choice and trained for, the other a possibility one hopefully not realized.

In some of the styles I used to practice they cultivated and developed a fighters mind set for lack of a better word.
The idea of self defense was replaced with self offense, with no real in between. the focus was different. The mind set was not
neutral, open to options, with not engaging or backing down, being one of them.

After awhile not something I found useful in life.

Cultivating an aware natural neutrality in both /mind/body, I've found to be very difficult but most useful.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 21, 2017 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby everything on Sun May 21, 2017 8:30 pm

IMO, One is a choice and trained for, the other a possibility one hopefully not realized.


Yes
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Ian on Sun May 21, 2017 9:08 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:...I can't believe that his training was irrelevant.


Don't you know that on THE STREET, all of a sport fighter's predatory drive, agility, balance, takedown / strike defense, knockout power, mental composure, body conditioning... all those advantages are suddenly conferred to the untrained individuals?
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby windwalker on Sun May 21, 2017 9:27 pm

Ian wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:...I can't believe that his training was irrelevant.


Don't you know that on THE STREET, all of a sport fighter's predatory drive, agility, balance, takedown / strike defense, knockout power, mental composure, body conditioning... all those advantages are suddenly conferred to the untrained individuals?


It all started with "you want to take this outside" because he was trained,
a toss up as to whether all his training would have saved him or
not by his own admission.

Instead of just leaving,

His "training" gave him a mind set which now he's survived maybe its changed him, maybe not...

The advantages always go to the untrained, by those feeling they are...untrained.
by being untrained they'er not constrained by being trained.

The question should be untrained for "what"

Things like "strike defense, knockout power, mental composure, body conditioning"
have a way of being mitigated by brass knuckles, bottles, knives, and guns and more then one on one.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 21, 2017 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Ian on Sun May 21, 2017 10:28 pm

1. Did the "sport fighters" regularly get into street fights, yes or no? If yes, wouldn't they also be "street fighters"?
Did the "street fighters" also train some kind of combat sport, which is not uncommon in Brazil, yes or no? If yes, wouldn't they also be "sport fighters"?
Without that information, there's no comparison to be made - we don't have two distinct categories to compare.

2. These sport fighters didn't look disadvantaged.











Last edited by Ian on Sun May 21, 2017 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Itten on Mon May 22, 2017 3:57 am

I think the best clarity I ever got about self defense was based upon the military mindset of "weapons failure" H2H combat is the result of three levels of weapons failure, or three degrees of stupid. Your machine gun jammed, your pistol jammed, your knife was blunt, dummy, now you will have to fight mano a mano.
In self defense terms using ma "on da streets" is three levels of failure, a failure of awareness: where am I, who's around, what's going on, what's the terrain? And so on. A failure to avoid potential problems, strategies of exit that don't capture predatory or "monkey" behavioral patterns. A failure to de-escalate, no right body language , no right talk. So now we get to fight, after 3 levels of failure, you might win you might lose. If you lose you might be dead, if you win you might be heading to jail. Self defense takes 6 months to learn, martial arts a lifetime. How come we mix the two into a catch all idea?
Last edited by Itten on Mon May 22, 2017 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby windwalker on Mon May 22, 2017 3:59 am

Itten wrote: How come we mix the two into a catch all idea?

;) interesting isn't it.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon May 22, 2017 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Ian on Mon May 22, 2017 4:37 am

Itten wrote:Self defense takes 6 months to learn, martial arts a lifetime. How come we mix the two into a catch all idea?


Non-sportive martial artists tend to have this irrational fixation on proving that sport martial arts are useless, and vice versa. Frequently to sell a product, as is the case with Tim Larkin.

I think the distinction is retarded. Sport and non-sport can clearly both contribute to making you a more complete martial artist.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Itten on Mon May 22, 2017 5:52 am

Ian wrote:
Itten wrote:Self defense takes 6 months to learn, martial arts a lifetime. How come we mix the two into a catch all idea?


Non-sportive martial artists tend to have this irrational fixation on proving that sport martial arts are useless, and vice versa. Frequently to sell a product, as is the case with Tim Larkin.

I think the distinction is retarded. Sport and non-sport can clearly both contribute to making you a more complete martial artist.


Sorry Ian, maybe I miss your point. I agree that sport and non sport can complement each other, but self defence isn't a sport. Practising in the ring can help prepare for fighting for sure, but personal protection is everything before, during , and after. I have never worked the door but have students who do. They always say it's the problems you create for yourself that are the hardest to fix. Thats been my experience in life too.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Pavel Macek on Mon May 22, 2017 7:24 am

Tim Larkin has some great concepts - but I personally do not like the actual techniques and execution at all.

I would personally say: not MMA vs Martial Arts vs Self Protection, but - MMA & Martial Arts & Self Protection. Once we get rid of the "vs" mentality, we will improve like never before.
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Re: MMA/ Martial Arts vs Self Protection

Postby Steve James on Mon May 22, 2017 7:38 am

I would personally say: not MMA vs Martial Arts vs Self Protection, but - MMA & Martial Arts & Self Protection. Once we get rid of the "vs" mentality, we will improve like never before.


+1
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