Kung Fu in UFC

[marvin8]

He was using TKD and wrestling to compete in all those competitions.

That's it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7-roiI5Vqc

Family:


Shi Deru disciple of Shaolin under Shi Su Xi. Pictured with Shaolin brother Shi De Yang:

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

As I mentioned before, people have all sorts of reasons for promoting what they want later in life. When I heard Cung speak, he said his background was TKD and wrestling with some boxing. That was almost 20 years ago, IIRC. He seems to have confirmed that with his own words since then.

I am open to reconsidering if there is some actual evidence presented that Cung Le actually trained a TCMA system for an extended period of time. It seems to me that he did some dabbling in all sorts of stuff, but that's not what comes out in his fights or what I have heard him say.

Not a huge deal to me, I just don't see Cung Le as being representative of CMA in the ring. It clearly was not his foundation.

[dspyrido]

San Da/San Shou is not a traditional martial system. It is a rule set. Of course he was a superb San Shou champion. I still have some VHS tapes of him competing and saw him fight, too. He was using TKD and wrestling to compete in all those competitions.

That's it.

Nah thats just sanshou. Not sanda.

When people train sanda and only sanda they are not learning a rule set. When they get in a ring and smash their tcma opponents you can't say they never learnt a martial art.

In the 1920s that may have made sense but for the thousands (or many more idk) sanda students it is a definitive style that had roots in cma. It's also actually pretty distinct from the 70s kickboxing offshoot of karate or muay thai due its use of stance swapping, it's takedowns and a lot more haymakers.

It's easy to see the modern reboot of mma going down exactly the same path. Mma - its mixing 2+ arts, then it's a rule set and now it's got schools teaching it as a stand alone art form.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

AFAIK, Sanda 散打 and Sanshou 散手 are the same thing. One term was used more in the mainland and the other adopted by the ROC and subsequently the USKSF. They mean the same thing. I get that Sanda has come to be somewhat codified on the mainland, but that is due to rule set and is not because Sanda was ever its own traditional art. UFC fighters often move similarly too, despite having varied backgrounds. Is UFC a system or traditional art?

If we are talking about Cung Le, he was doing Sanshou, so that further rejects the argument that what he was doing was Sanda (assuming you want to argue that Sanda is different from Sanshou and that Cung was doing the former). I think I remember a story of him having to fight in Taiwan with a terrible bout of diarrhea.

[marvin8]

When I heard Cung speak, he said his background was TKD and wrestling with some boxing. That was almost 20 years ago, IIRC. He seems to have confirmed that with his own words since then.

How did he "confirm with his own words, since then" that he based his fighting only on TKD and wrestling? Are you ignoring the interview videos that have been posted in this thread? Cung Le says he combines wrestling, TKD and Sanda in his fighting:

From Cung Le's own mouth. @ 1:10 "From Tae Kwan Do I found Sanshou or Sanda . . . "

Published on Dec 4, 2016
Had the privilege of Interviewing Former Strikeforce World Champion & MMA Legend Cung Le! I hope you like it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6VqRtQh3DQ

If we are talking about Cung Le, he was doing Sanshou, so that further rejects the argument that what he was doing was Sanda (assuming you want to argue that Sanda is different from Sanshou and that Cung was doing the former). I think I remember a story of him having to fight in Taiwan with a terrible bout of diarrhea.

Cung Le says he uses Sanda in his fighting and Shi Deru teaches Sanda at the Shaolin Institute. From the Shaolin Institute, http://www.shaolin-world.net/classes/kickboxing:

Extreme Sanda
Extreme Sanshou/Sanda is evolved from Kung Fu which is an ancient martial art with over 4000 years old history later developed by the Shaolin Monks of China used during times of survival in the wild mountain and unpleasant war, now seen in sport as XTREME SANSHOU, a full body professional fighting contest in the modern day ring incorporating every aspect of Kung Fu including kicks, punches, grabs, throws, grappling, locking and interceptions. It is unlike any other fighting sport and demands incredible mental strategy and physical strength making it the most exciting fighting style existing in the world today. It is entirely different from MMA which focus on violence and brutality without sufficient skills; Kungfu Sanshou incorporates skills, talents, character, self-control and indomitable spirit of the ancient Shaolin.

The rules of Xtreme Sanshou are very simple, because it is a Kung Fu fight; it utilizes extreme strategy and endurance skills. Any act of malicious behavior or of intentionally injuring another fighter is grounds for automatic disqualification. This is especially true during throws and grappling.

This fight is captivating and the highest test for true martial artists who incorporate their knowledge of skills, talents, tolerance, discipline and control under the most extreme set of circumstances. The true martial artist knows that Kung Fu is a genuine expression of movements and motion that comes from each unique individual. Not only does it express the flow of energy from within the individual, but it also needs to comprehend and anticipate the opponent's energy in a contest. It is a basic understanding that one microcosm of energy represents the universal energy; power, life-force, Qi. Much is being written today on this field of knowledge.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

No, you are just ignoring my point about people having various reasons for changing history.

Xtreme Sanda(tm) sounds quite traditional. Not gimmicky at all. Couldn't be that they are trying to sell something. Nah.

Also, why did all of his stuff say "Sanshou" and not Sanda until recently?

Also, none of this has convinced me that Sanshou (Cung has Dvds as recent as 2009 using this term exclusively) is a martial art. It means free fighting/free hand/free striking and is a rule set.

Look at his record. He started winning his Sanshou comps right away. Why? Because he had a background in two non-Chinese martial arts that were well suited to the rules.

Next you are going to tell me that Chuck Lidell studied CMA. He's on the list, too.

[Steve James]

Kung fu isn't a style, is it? Sanshou or sanda, when it comes to competition, it's usually a distinction without a difference. If Cung Le studied Shaolin, it doesn't make him a Shaolin fighter, any more than if he studied boxing or wrestling. One can he doesn't do kick boxing, but he punches and kicks. His takedowns, of course, were not allowed in "kickboxing" (or professional karate).

Kickboxing, in fact, is younger than sanda or sanshou. The whole point was to get away from point-fighting and light-contact competitions that began to seem unrealistic compared to western boxing. Everyone who participated during that era came from either a Japanese or Chinese traditional system. You could tell what style a person practiced by the type of kicks he used or punches he threw.

Grappling only came to prominence after the success of Royce in the UFC. His bjj was seen as an effective antidote to other systems. That lasted until the muay thai monsters like Maurice Smith came along. Damage is damage. However, for every weapon, a defense must be developed. If a style is created within a context where certain weapons are not used, it is not necessarily sufficient to deal with that weapon. Adjustments may be necessary. Even if the argument is that a style is totally sufficient, there is no way to argue effectiveness against the unknown.

[marvin8]

No, you are just ignoring my point about people having various reasons for changing history.

Xtreme Sanda(tm) sounds quite traditional. Not gimmicky at all. Couldn't be that they are trying to sell something. Nah.

Also, why did all of his stuff say "Sanshou" and not Sanda until recently?

Also, none of this has convinced me that Sanshou (Cung has Dvds as recent as 2009 using this term exclusively) is a martial art. It means free fighting/free hand/free striking and is a rule set.

Look at his record. He started winning his Sanshou comps right away. Why? Because he had a background in two non-Chinese martial arts that were well suited to the rules.

Speculating and giving your opinion is perfectly fine.

However, you are slandering Cung Le, Shi Deru, and the Shaolin Institute when you claim, as a fact, that Cung Le never learned Sanda. While, there is evidence he did. Essentially, you're calling them a fraud and liar.

Here's an excerpt from a recent article, Interview with Cung Le, http://kungfukingdom.com/interview-cung-le/:

I started out in Taekwondo when I was 10-years old because I was getting bullied. My teacher actually taught both Taekwondo and Kung Fu at his school. After that, I took up wrestling in high school, and 1993 was when I began training in Sanda. Two years after that, I was competing for the U.S. Team in the World Kung Fu Championship.

[dspyrido]

I get that Sanda has come to be somewhat codified on the mainland, but that is due to rule set and is not because Sanda was ever its own traditional art. UFC fighters often move similarly too, despite having varied backgrounds. Is UFC a system or traditional art?

I can't tell if you think the UFC example is you believing it is a clever argument or you are just being a smart arse. At the very least you could have used the term MMA rather than trying to refer to an marketing brand which poses as an entertainment company, clothing brand, gym etc. etc.

Now you don't think Sanda is a system (wow!) or traditional art. Before using this term how about explaining what exactly is a traditional art? Pretty sure sanda ticks as many boxes as any other so called traditional art short of one thing - they don't like long winded forms. No they like short "forms". Or should we say - training drills. Just like boxing does. Just like Muay Thai does.

But while we are at it using a similar line of argument like you have then judo is obviously not a system. It's just a bunch of rules on how to compete. Hell why stop there. Look at freestyle wrestling. It obviously is a rule set as well. It can't be a system of learning or a martial art. (THIS IS SARCASM IN CASE YOU MISSED IT)

Sound like a stupid argument? Well because it is. Just like the label for MMA is now used to represent a system for learning martial arts so to it is Sanda and has been for many decades. Just like boxing, muay thai and many others are systems (martial arts).

Now let's assume you are right (which you're not). Why don't we start by going to all those guys who run Sanda schools with big Sanda signs outside that they are not a martial art, system and are not even traditional (even though they are multi-generational).

But before we do - do you do Sanda? Have you mentioned your theory to your fellow training partners and instructors?

[cloudz]

San Da/San Shou is not a traditional martial system. It is a rule set. Of course he was a superb San Shou champion. I still have some VHS tapes of him competing and saw him fight, too. He was using TKD and wrestling to compete in all those competitions.

That's it.

semantics, labels, systems, styles.

I'm sure if he hooked up with a coach of Sanda he would have been exposed to techniques that are more typically KF ..
When I used to see his stuff, he used kick catching and takedowns off them to good effect. That's the sanda/ kung fu influence right there.
It's not in TKD or Western Wrestling. And he was pretty good at it, it very much gave his fighting it's unique flavour in my opinion.

As for the rest, well.
I'm sure you just didn't wake up and turn your computer on for the first time ever.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

It's a sad state of affairs when people think they are defending TCMA by calling Sanda a TCMA. Where does the "art" in Martial Arts come from? Kung fu is not about fighting alone, not even Wushu is.

The counter arguments presented are weak. Arguing that freestyle wrestling is more than a rule set...When we know that it came from Catch as Catch Can which is a much deeper art with a far longer tradition.

And now I'm "slandering Cung Le?" Fuck off with that shite. I'd say that you are the one misrepresenting what he said.

I'll ask again: how long was he training "Shaolin?" I notice that none of the "monk's" centers are very close to the South Bay. At what point did Shaolin overtake his TKD training? Watching his fight against Frank Shamrock, I'd say never.

These are the relevant questions, as is: is Cung Le representative of TCMA in the ring? I'd still say no.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that and mad respect to Cung Le.

[cloudz]

Ah,

He did dispaly some techniques that are in TCMA though, but I'd agree that he didn't represent a particular TCMA as such.
I can see how an argument around how you define such terms may arise, but I'm past caring now.
It was just nice to see someone using techniques you can find in KF, on that stage, at that time.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Oh, you mean his use of textbook Thai leg catches and sweeps? Yeah, those are nice, and were developed well by Thai fighters who fought with boxing gloves:



See section 3 for textbook Thai sweeps:



Cung Le against Shamrock for comparison:

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Cung Le was a great fighter. Let's actually examine his fighting rather than his or others' words. Here is a nice highlight. I see some very nice TKD, boxing, Thai knees from the clinch, and wrestling. Note the extensive use of roundhouse kicks. Did he learn those at Shaolin? If so, where did the new Shaolin learn them from?

[everything]

Just like other champions like Royce, Fedor, Jon Jones, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Tyson, Ali, etc., Cung Le had a very identifiable personal style. None of those champions fight in a similar way, whatsoever. Sure they use punches, kicks, throws, locks, and grappling or some subset (especially the boxers). Other than that, they are clearly so different. You couldn't ask any of them to fight just like Royce or Ali or whomever. Only Jones or Fedor could maybe come close. Maybe having a vanilla non-personal style based on whatever art x is a bad idea.