Kung Fu in UFC

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Re: Kung Fu in UFC

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu May 25, 2017 11:08 am

everything wrote:Just like other champions like Royce, Fedor, Jon Jones, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Tyson, Ali, etc., Cung Le had a very identifiable personal style. None of those champions fight in a similar way, whatsoever. Sure they use punches, kicks, throws, locks, and grappling or some subset (especially the boxers). Other than that, they are clearly so different. You couldn't ask any of them to fight just like Royce or Ali or whomever. Only Jones or Fedor could maybe come close. Maybe having a vanilla non-personal style based on whatever art x is a bad idea.


I agree. Many of my favorite fighters may not have been the champs, but they all had style in spades. Sudo, Imanari, and Saku. Of course, they were all great fighters but it was their panache that really made me a fan.
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Re: Kung Fu in UFC

Postby everything on Thu May 25, 2017 1:33 pm

Pride really understood this point. Perhaps leaning a little too much toward the pro wrestling flair, but they seemed to know that not only do champs often have something special, the flair and uniqueness makes for better entertainment. If everyone is the same, it's so boring. I miss Jones, Anderson Silva, and Rampage (he wasn't maybe technically the same level as these other guys, but he was so darn entertaining and he had his unique take on the brawler style). Even champs who are just better at all basics are a little boring. The true greats we all remember seem a little different.

Imagine if people tried really hard to copy and codify their style though. It wouldn't work. You can't just study and be just like Tyson or Ali or Fedor. Maybe some of that happens with the big IMA, at least three of which are famous due to mainly one person who perhaps had that something special that is inimitable. Imagine in 500 years people arguing "that's not Le style" or "Le style prefers this way". Makes no sense, but it seems like the (il)logical road we've gone down in some of these threads.
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Re: Kung Fu in UFC

Postby marvin8 on Thu May 25, 2017 7:36 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:And now I'm "slandering Cung Le?" Fuck off with that shite. I'd say that you are the one misrepresenting what he said.

No. I am "quoting" and linking to Cung Le himself stating it on video. You may be 100% correct in that Cung Le told you he only studied wrestling & TKD, 20 years ago. However since then, there is evidence he studied Sanda. I just wanted to give Cung Le and Shi Deru sides, to be fair.

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I'll ask again: how long was he training "Shaolin?" I notice that none of the "monk's" centers are very close to the South Bay. At what point did Shaolin overtake his TKD training? Watching his fight against Frank Shamrock, I'd say never.

Per the interview I posted, since 1993. These are your criteria.

I titled the OP the name of the youtube video. I thought the producer of the video did a good job in matching kung fu techniques with techniques used in the UFC. However, I was not making a statement myself.

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:These are the relevant questions, as is: is Cung Le representative of TCMA in the ring? I'd still say no.

I haven't watched enough of his fights, to say. So, I don't really have an opinion at this time. Nor is it that important to me. :)

Here is more evidence Cung Le and Pat Barry studied at least Sanda/Sanshou at the Shaolin Institute.

Published on Dec 2, 2015
Cung Le’s journey in SanDa (Shanshou) started at the US Open . "What is SanDa? " Cung Le called the master, "You can punch, kick- low, mid or high, you can throw…” said Shi DeRu (Coach Shawn Liu) saw something in Cung and trained him to be the warrior that he is today. “If you’re training with him (Shi DeRu)? You got it”, Cung Le. He has been with his coach and Sanshou ever since:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIIHuoIjjJg

Uploaded on May 10, 2009
Patrick Barry is in simulation fight with his Sanshou training mate Wael Karika Muhammed at Shaolin Institute New Orleans campus. Grand Master Shawn Liu is instructing.

Weal Karika Mohammed is a heavy weight world Sanshou champion and Sanshou Heavy Weight Champion representing the US under Grand Master Shawn Liu at 2008 Greeting Olympics Cup in Hong Kong, China where Patrick Barry served as US assistant Coach. Patrick Barry is a K. Superstar World Sanshou Champion in Art of War Sanshou Championship and US Open International Martial Arts Championship.

Both Patrick Barry and Cung Le from Grand Master Shawn Liu's US National Kungfu Sanshou training camp are fighting on world class MMA top professional main cards. Cung Le is the middle weight World champion on Strike Force while Patrick Barry is fighting on one of the main cards at UFC. http://www.shaolin-world.net.

The following words are directly from the above fighters at Grand Master Liu's training camp:

"Shawn Liu has been like a father to me. And I owe a lot to him. He had me out there doing four thousand kicks a day; he's a hard trainer, but that's what it takes." stated by Cung Le in 1997 Kungfu Magazine interview.

" This is first real training I have ever had, it's great" Patrick Barry stated at 2002 Sanshou training camp

" I have got an opportunity training with one of the best teachers in the world, Mr. Liu." By Wael Karika Mohammed at Shaolin Institute Sanshou Training Camp 2008.
http://www.shaolin-world.net

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Cp9Zi0gRQc

Published on Mar 23, 2012
This is an interview video with Patrick Barry, an international top Kung-Fu talent.

Videotaped & edited by Tom; Chinese subtitle by Deru & Silver wave:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7_2VapuRtk
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Re: Kung Fu in UFC

Postby dspyrido on Thu May 25, 2017 7:56 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:It's a sad state of affairs when people think they are defending TCMA by calling Sanda a TCMA. Where does the "art" in Martial Arts come from? Kung fu is not about fighting alone, not even Wushu is.


That's an even dumber argument! An "art" is an expression of creativity. A "martial art" is founded on combat and creativity making anything not about fighting a supporting concept. Not a core concept.

And tma or tcma is ... sigh why bother. If you don't get it then I can't be bothered.

Look it up and prove me wrong.

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:The counter arguments presented are weak. Arguing that freestyle wrestling is more than a rule set...When we know that it came from Catch as Catch Can which is a much deeper art with a far longer tradition.


Did you miss the big bold words? It was to highlight how frivolous your line of logic is.

But again I'll ask the question - have you trained with guys who practise sanda? Did you pose your theory to the head of the school that they are not training a martial art?

Every guy I know who does sanda says when asked they "do sanda". The instructors teach sanda. Every one of them call it a cma. They also do it in conjunction with an additional cma styles which influence how they train and express sanda to get a competitive edge (eg many train in shuaijiow to boost there sanda). Some also explore other non-cma styles.

Now cung le says he does sanda and you like to say he does twd + wrestling. So in your book either cung does not know what he is practising or is a liar. Wow. ::)
Last edited by dspyrido on Thu May 25, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kung Fu in UFC

Postby cloudz on Fri May 26, 2017 2:08 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Oh, you mean his use of textbook Thai leg catches and sweeps? Yeah, those are nice, and were developed well by Thai fighters who fought with boxing gloves:



See section 3 for textbook Thai sweeps:



Cung Le against Shamrock for comparison:



Jesus dude..

He trained with a Sanda coach not MT from what's been said about his background, so we can surmize that he got it from a CMA.
Why post a bunch of MT videos, not that I have anything against the system. But you could just as well have posted Sanda, err you know because that's Kung Fu (CMA).
And this thread is about Kung Fu in MMA (sorry UFC). I really don't know what all the fuss is about... :)
Last edited by cloudz on Fri May 26, 2017 2:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kung Fu in UFC

Postby cloudz on Fri May 26, 2017 2:49 am

everything wrote:Just like other champions like Royce, Fedor, Jon Jones, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Tyson, Ali, etc., Cung Le had a very identifiable personal style. None of those champions fight in a similar way, whatsoever. Sure they use punches, kicks, throws, locks, and grappling or some subset (especially the boxers). Other than that, they are clearly so different. You couldn't ask any of them to fight just like Royce or Ali or whomever. Only Jones or Fedor could maybe come close. Maybe having a vanilla non-personal style based on whatever art x is a bad idea.


In my Opinion:
Systems are for the group, style is for the individual.
And I think I need to write an essay.

I started one as I got a bit carried away replying to you ;D
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Re: Kung Fu in UFC

Postby chud on Fri May 26, 2017 5:50 am

You guys seem to be focusing on Cung Le and ignoring the rest of that substantial list that marvin8 posted.
Roy "Big Country" Nelson is the most obvious kung fu fighter who comes to mind.

But I also liked:

marvin8 wrote:Luke Cummo (UFC) Kung Fu, Jeet Kune Do, bjj. Also appeared on The Ultimate Fighter. [10] [11]


I remember watching TUF Season 2 and one of the challenges they had all the contestants do is stand in a low horse stance; most of the guys didn't last a minute, but Luke beat them all and said that he used to do that all the time in the kung fu school he went to. He continued to rise above the rest of the contestants during the show even though he looked like a geek compared to some of the muscle heads in the house. His martial arts background clearly helped him, and I enjoyed watching him on the show and in his fights later.
Last edited by chud on Fri May 26, 2017 5:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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