It all comes from Ju-jutsu

[middleway]

hi Ashura,

Yes, I had already been gone a few years at that point but still see those guys from time to time. Martyn is now a teacher of Serge Augiers Da Xuan.

happy training.

thanks.

[GrahamB]

Those two are SCARY good.

[Ian]

I think that there is a 99,9% probability that you are right, but this is the result of the evolution and the development of the ne-waza brought to Brazil by some Japanese judokas which then led to the creation of BJJ.

Well, I agree, that's just a fact The Gracies didn't invent anything; they learned Kosen Judo.

We could exactly say the same but in the opposite way. Are the contemporary BJJ people´s throwing ability better than some of the old schools which were specialized in that area?

Absolutely not. BJJ guys have inferior standup compared with wrestlers and competitive (not recreational) judoka.

Where we probably disagree is - I think that specialization in combat sports leads to net gain, because it narrows the scope but increases the depth, like undergrad vs. PhD.

First of all, depth is more rewarding than breadth, IMO.

Second of all, whatever you learn now is far more likely to be better than 100 years ago. If you want to plug multiple disciplines back together, you'll have a much better technique base.

Check out this top control vs. the top control in your two clips:

Some people do now cross train and Carlson Gracie Junior told me that he was a judo black belt also and that it does/did help him a lot to gain an advantageous position in his fights. There is nothing wrong with that and this might well be the next evolution for both arts/sports.

Many high level BJJ guys already cross train.

Competitive BJJ black belts who are also judo black belts:
-Saulo & Xande Ribeiro
-Aoki Shinya
-Ronaldo Souza
-Claudio Calasans (posted a highlight on page 1)
-Travis Stevens

Competitive BJJ black belts who also train wrestling:
-Marcelo Garcia
-Gary Tonon
-Braulio Estima
-Many others, especially for ADCC

[everything]

I kind of hate groundwork but these vids make me want to do it. With limited time (if you're basically a pro, study more, sure), I'd rather go back to judo. Kind of perfectly bridges many gaps.

I dig what you're both saying.

[Ashura]

Well, I agree, that's just a fact The Gracies didn't invent anything; they learned Kosen Judo.

And to be 100% honest, i must say that the Brazilians (not only the Gracies anymore) developped it to a very impressive level. Something that the Japanese are not doing anymore and those who dare doing that are usually marginalized not to say black listed.

Second of all, whatever you learn now is far more likely to be better than 100 years ago. If you want to plug multiple disciplines back together, you'll have a much better technique base.

I do not necessarily disagree with your statement but there are exceptions. I think that Ken-jutsu back in the days, let's say during the last years of the Tokugawa era was incomparably deeper and that the trainees were far ahead as opposed to modern trainees, but, obviously, the situation was very different.

IMO, and thisn is where we might not agree, Ju-jutsu, whatever the focus (standing techniques, ground etc....) should rest on a strong technical basis and should not rely too much on athletism. The guys in the clips you posted are all amazing in their field of expertise but I see, sometimes, an important use of strength/raw power, especially in the take downs ,which is not bad, but we all know that strength, stamina tend to reduce as we age.

Again, there is nothing wrong with that, I used to use a lot of raw power when I was younger which allowed me to "win" fights that I was technically losing if you seen what I mean. I'm relatively heavy and mother nature was nice to me. In Japan, for instance, people called me the German bear (even though I'm Italian) and I gradually became unsatisfied with what I was doing and I started to look for concrete solutions and methods for using my body differently and not relying on my athletism.

Don't get me wrong, the guys you cite are amazing and probably already use their body the right way. As I told you, I'm not familiar with the BJJ world and the only guy that I know in your list is Jacare, and Aoki sounds familiar as well. But, we are talking about top athletes, not average people. I do not think that you can find that kind of practionner in classical Ju-jutsu, so making parrallels is difficult here.

Ju-jutsu is a life long journey, I really enjoy watchning older practionners training, I think it is great and it proves that Ju-jutsu can be practiced well into the third age. I saw once a reportage by Budo Jake, Flavio Behring was the guest. He recalled some of his experiences with the Gracies and other issues. Then, he showed some movements using Budo Jake as his partner. The purpose was to put pressure on the partner by "simply" getting into position from different position. This is the kind of work which interests me the most today. The seminar with Carlson Gracie Junior was quite similar and this is why I enjoyed it so much.

Every year, new colleagues are entering the force, some of them are 20 years younger than me, so at some point I felt like I had to adapt, one of the many meanings of Ju, in order to be able to last a little bit longer.

[Fubo]

Jiujitsu comes from China anyway.

I'll just leave that here... *backs away*.....

I met a guy that claimed pretty much all CMA came from Jujitsu, and that Shuai Jiao came from Judo. That's the kind of talk that will actually start WW3.

[C.J.W.]

Jiujitsu comes from China anyway.

I'll just leave that here... *backs away*.....

I met a guy that claimed pretty much all CMA came from Jujitsu, and that Shuai Jiao came from Judo. That's the kind of talk that will actually start WW3.

On a related topic, Sumo actually came from the Chinese. There are 2000-year-old wall paintings from Han dynasty that depict large men with their hair in a topknot wrestling each other in loincloths. A Japanese scholar has also researched the subject and confirmed the sport's Chinese origin.

Ironically, like so many other ancient Chinese exports, the Japanese have managed to preserve Sumo while it went extinct in China.

As far as Jujitsu goes, I believe that while some styles can trace their beginnings directly to Chinese sources, it'd be a stretch to claim that they ALL came from China. For example, the sophisticated ground fighting and choking techniques that Jujitsu is famous for are beyond the scope of CMA. It's pretty obvious that they were a Japanese invention.

IMO, It'd be far more reasonable to say that Jujistu was influenced by Chinese arts during the course of its development.

[Steve James]

Martial arts developed out of wars between states. (I didn't say it; Sun Tzu did). That why the arts of war needed to be studied. It's probably not even relevant today to talk of martial arts originating in China. At best we're talking about the various styles of the various states or regions until the "unification." The first studies of how to fight would have happened among the first group of people in the region, or they would have been wiped out or subsumed into the superior military culture. Wrestling (and striking) would develop regardless of contact between cultures.

So, it's most likely that the oldest established society would have been the common ancestor for the arts of the others. I'm not an expert or up with the latest research; however, I think that tracing culture (including martial arts) through language is a reliable method for determining origins. But, as soon as two or more cultures interact, there is always a mutual influence.

There is the old story that "kara te" means China hand; but, even so, if the Chinese had gotten something that originated in Japan, they would say it was a Chinese invention. This is not unusual. Just ask USAmericans who invented "stuff."

[everything]

What may be interesting but is lost knowledge is the influence of the Yuan Dynasty.

The increased war techniques as well as trade happening under the Mongolian rule would seem likely to increase other cultural contact.

Historians say anti-siege techniques improved in Europe due to dealing with sieges from the Mongolian invaders. It seems possible martial arts (after riding, archery, wrestling) starting with weapons and siege techniques could have changed too. Having a Sino-centric view of things may just demonstrate a cultural confirmation bias.

[Steve James]

It's like chopsticks. They were probably "invented" in China, but how do we know that it wasn't an idea present where the Chinese came from? If, for ex., they were first twigs used to get food out of hot oil or liquid, then why would they originate in China? (Of course, environment will have some effect on the availability of materials. But, why are chopsticks used throughout Asia? What did the Japanese, for ex., use before chopsticks? Or, why are Japanese chopsticks different from Chinese?

Some things aren't inventions or creations, just things that someone takes credit for. Everybody wants to claim they know where the use of fire and the wheel came from, but nobody knows the inventor's name.

[everything]

All cultures must have had wrestling but in certain cultures such as the Mongolian military, it was particularly important (along with archery and riding). The Mongolians influenced the Manchurians (Qing dynasty) and we know (Wikipedia) their wrestling styles influenced Beijing and Tianjin styles of shuaijiao wrestling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao#History). We also know Dong Haichuan and Yin Fu spent ten years in Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Haichuan) and Dong was proficient in wrestling before creating Baguazhang. All of these cultural links seem to be commonly overlooked, but it all makes a lot of sense. All of these arts like bagua for example are "mixed" martial arts with lots of origins. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to say that I study bgz and it is not "mixed" when it was a mix created from Dong's many studies. Same with Sun style taijiquan and so on. Same if we could only study under Fedor, hypothetically.