It all comes from Ju-jutsu

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It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ashura on Mon May 22, 2017 5:16 am

As the saying goes: Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed.




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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby everything on Mon May 22, 2017 1:36 pm

I don't know the context of the statement, but suppose for a moment it's judo. Most of the technical work and principles all come from jujutsu. The training method, however, is much more interactive, with resistance, and at the same time "safe".

IMA could use a similar interactive, with resistance, and safe training method.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ian on Mon May 22, 2017 4:13 pm

It (I'm guessing you mean judo / bjj?) is all jujitsu, but the techniques have evolved for the better, thanks to international competition.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ashura on Mon May 22, 2017 11:40 pm

I did not choose the name of the videos, I just pasted it because I thought it was a good one.

Actually, the techniques shown in the videos belong to two koryu (classical schools) and it is interesting to note that the techniques were not that different at the time despite all the talk about evolution.

Ryushin Katchu Ryu on the first video is not very famous even in Japan, it seems that somebody from Tenjin shin´yo ryu branched off in order to create his own Ryu-ha (style). Interestingly, judo was created mostly from Tenjin Shin´yo ryu and Kito-ryu.

What is shown is the omote version, not the concrete application. In Koryu Bujutsu, usually only omote waza are shown publicly, not the ura waza. The teaching methodology in the classical schools is both very deep and evolutive. The omote waza are the basic syllabus of the school but then gradually the same basic syllabus evolves as the trainee evolves. Omote waza, ura waza, oyo geiko, kaeishi geiko, tokui waza..... all those concepts are part of the school but are often neglected by the observers who just stop at the omote waza. Usually, these techniques are dismissed by the general public and potential trainees.

It (I'm guessing you mean judo / bjj?) is all jujitsu, but the techniques have evolved for the better, thanks to international competition.


I have to disagree here. Yes, techniques have evolved as the times have evolved. You might have noticed that in classical Ju-jutsu, some of the techniques imply the use of small edged weapons. There is still a whole syllabus with small, sometimes hidden weapons in these schools. Finishing off somebody with a bladed weapon by cutting off the throat is obviously a different story.

Techniques have not necessary evolved for the better thanks to competion but rather because of competition especially in BJJ. In my opinion, competition did damabge judo since many techniques have been banned throughout the years because of the potential injuries and, as a result, those techniques are not studied anymore. We can hardly talk about positive evolution in this case.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby middleway on Tue May 23, 2017 6:18 am

The larger point here is ... Who cares where something practiced today came from?! It doesnt change what is practiced TODAY and certainly the older the method does not = the better the method. This is one of those romantic ideas of traditional martial artists that needs to be snuffed out. A method should be judged on its merits today, not on how long it has been around.

I say this as a Dan Grade in Traditional JuJutsu, Kenjutsu and IaiJutsu with a strong love for those old arts.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby GrahamB on Tue May 23, 2017 6:55 am

Jiujitsu comes from China anyway.

I'll just leave that here... *backs away*.....
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby everything on Tue May 23, 2017 7:08 am

it's not to say judo is superior in all aspects or sport MA is superior in all aspects or one shouldn't study "traditional" things. the argument is just that taking relatively "safe" techniques in a sport format provides interactive application training under full (but safe) resistance. there is nothing wrong with that argument, nor does it argue (AFAIK) that anyone should forget or give up other aspects of jujutsu (although that is a separate argument that could be made for other reasons). in some random bjj class i went to once, we looked at sport vs. self-defense applications, but no one has time for everything, so most likely you have to make your own prioritized decision. everyone should do a little of both imho, but there are many more important things to do that will "defend" your life and health, and there are many other fun and rewarding things to do.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ashura on Tue May 23, 2017 8:56 am

middleway wrote:The larger point here is ... Who cares where something practiced today came from?! It doesnt change what is practiced TODAY and certainly the older the method does not = the better the method. This is one of those romantic ideas of traditional martial artists that needs to be snuffed out. A method should be judged on its merits today, not on how long it has been around.

I say this as a Dan Grade in Traditional JuJutsu, Kenjutsu and IaiJutsu with a strong love for those old arts.


I have never meant that older method are better then more modern method. It is just amazing to notice that there are not so many differences between yesterday´s techniques and today´s techniques if you watch carefully. When judo arised at the end of the 19th centuries, some people skilled in other classical schools joined the Kodokan and probably imported some of the concepts and techniques with them. Thus, judo was more versatile back then.

It looks like everybody thinks that i´m criticizing judo or BJJ, but this is absolutely not the case. As a Ju-jutsu practionner both classical and modern, I find very interesting to know where techniques are coming from and why they developped that way.

By the way, if you are the person I believe you are, I went to your former dojo in Gloucester to train with Quentin, Martyn and some other lads around 2006. This was very nice, if I recall well you had left shortly before. Too bad!!!!


Jiujitsu comes from China anyway.

I'll just leave that here... *backs away*.....


Sure not. It comes from Greece, via India, the Japanese did the rest and now the rest of the world is taking over.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ian on Tue May 23, 2017 9:54 am

Ashura wrote:Techniques have not necessary evolved for the better thanks to competion but rather because of competition especially in BJJ.


I'm not sure what's the difference.

Anyway, when watching old jujitsu tapes, more often than not I just see techniques that are easy to escape, positions that are hard to maintain etc. in comparison with techniques in 2017, that in general have better micro-details, afford more control, encourage better leverage...

In your video, it would be super easy for the bottom guy to recover guard against that mount and knee on belly, and it would take nothing to defend those lapel chokes.

I prefer to keep two feet firmly planted in the present and future, while gaining *limited* inspiration from the past.

This is just objectively better - better training methods, better results, higher overall standard internationally:



The same can be said for judo (even though they took techniques out), wrestling, boxing, basically any sport you care to name.

I agree with Mick Coup on evolution:



But some people will romanticise the past no matter what.

Ashura wrote:It looks like everybody thinks that i´m criticizing judo or BJJ, but this is absolutely not the case.


To be clear, I don't think this :)
Last edited by Ian on Tue May 23, 2017 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ashura on Tue May 23, 2017 11:42 am

Ian wrote:I'm not sure what's the difference.

Anyway, when watching old jujitsu tapes, more often than not I just see techniques that are easy to escape, positions that are hard to maintain etc. in comparison with techniques in 2017, that in general have better micro-details, afford more control, encourage better leverage...

Ashura wrote:It looks like everybody thinks that i´m criticizing judo or BJJ, but this is absolutely not the case.


To be clear, I don't think this :)


OK, it seems that my explanations did not reach their puropose, but I guess it cannot be helped.

And to be clear too, I think you are wrong in your assumptions.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ian on Tue May 23, 2017 12:19 pm

No, I understood your point.

And I was saying "I don't think you're criticizing judo and bjj", in case this wasn't clear.

As a Ju-jutsu practionner both classical and modern, I find very interesting to know where techniques are coming from and why they developped that way.


Yes, it's interesting.

However, maybe people (perhaps not yourself) assume that traditional is better, classical is better, older is better... based on no evidence.

There's simply no way that the mount in your first video is better than Roger's mount.
There's no way that old school leg locks are better than Eddie Cummings' or Gary Tonon's leg locks.
There's no way that the guard passing back then was better than Rafa's or Leandro's passing.
And who had better chokes than Marcelo in the 1900s..
Not to mention the improvements in S&C and nutrition.

Sure, bjj is kosen, and kosen is kodokan...and we can keep tracing this back as a thought experiment... but the overall standard is objectively higher now than ever before. It's not even debatable.

I also disagree re: fragmentation. Most high level guys cross-train to some extent.





Did you watch the Mick Coup clips? Recommended, if you haven't.
Last edited by Ian on Tue May 23, 2017 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby everything on Tue May 23, 2017 2:36 pm

various arts seem to recognize all of this and try to retain older knowledge. in theory, judo tries to preserve some old methods through kata. I don't know if this works out in practice. at some random bjj class, we did look at self-defense applications (slightly different than the main sport emphasis) of the same sequence of moves, however briefly. other arts really don't have the equivalent of randori or shiai, so whatever that loss, their kata is perhaps transmitted more clearly (since that would be the emphasis). what's being pointed out on various other threads is that all can actually be lost, not retained, this way. and people perhaps don't even realize it.

there is a lot of human knowledge that is lost. we have some clues to how the egyptians built the pyramids but we don't really know. a lot of languages such as certain native American languages are disappearing. for the most part, we know way more now, though, obviously. maybe a few dedicated people can retain some of the information that is disappearing.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ashura on Wed May 24, 2017 1:38 am

Ian,

And I was saying "I don't think you're criticizing judo and bjj", in case this wasn't clear.


I missread your post, sorry for that.

As you know, Ju-jutsu is a rather loose term which applies to different disciplines. The subject is so huge that it should deserve an exhaustive study. May be it has already been done, I do not know.

I do not have much experience in pure BJJ. I did two seminars, one with some instructors from the Carvalho team based in Sweden, and the second one with Carlson Gracie Junior here in Germany while he was touring around Europe. On top of that, on wednesdays, a guy gives a "BJJ orientated lesson" at the the Police central dojo where I train. The first seminar was good but it did not get me interested in the art, the second one was exceptional both in quality and teachning methodology. After this seminar, I realized the depth of BJJ and the amount of work which has been necessary to bring it where it is today. My ground work comes primarily from judo and sambo and it is now crystal clear that BJJ has gone throught a different evolution and that the general level of the people practicing BJJ is indeed very high and BJJ is perhaps one of the very last art where the color of the belt is still relevant.

So, I have no particular problem with this quote of yours:

There's simply no way that the mount in your first video is better than Roger's mount.
There's no way that old school leg locks are better than Eddie Cummings' or Gary Tonon's leg locks.
There's no way that the guard passing back then was better than Rafa's or Leandro's passing.
And who had better chokes than Marcelo in the 1900s..


I think that there is a 99,9% probability that you are right, but this is the result of the evolution and the development of the ne-waza brought to Brazil by some Japanese judokas which then led to the creation of BJJ. We could exactly say the same but in the opposite way. Are the contemporary BJJ people´s throwing ability better than some of the old schools which were specialized in that area? Probably not and there is nothing wrong since their focus is more on ground techniques than throwing techniques. Kano chose to emphasize the throws to the detriment of the ground work because he did not like it. As a result, judo players are very skilled at throwing, less at ground fighting especially because in judo, once the opponent is pinned down, "all" you have to do is to keep the position for 25 seconds to get the victory which is not the case in BJJ. Exactly like executing a beautiful throw in BJJ will not give you the victory.

Some people do now cross train and Carlson Gracie Junior told me that he was a judo black belt also and that it does/did help him a lot to gain an advantageous position in his fights. There is nothing wrong with that and this might well be the next evolution for both arts/sports.

Back to the classical schools now. I have always been critical (sometimes overly) in a constructive way though because I like them very much and I have always been sure that there were some great stuff in them. Granted, some of the demonstrations would leave anybody puzzled because some moves and ways of executing techniques or defending from some attacks are, especially in our eyes, rather bizzare not to say crazy. This is one of the worst aspect of these arts. There is no pedagogy as you first enter of of these schools. You are just told to do as you are instructed and that´s it.

As I started, years ago, I would only learn three techniques from september to january and when I tried to observe what more experiences students were doing (which was much more appealing by the way) I just got scolded for not concentrating on my own work. So, it was very tough both mentally (always repeating ad nauseam the same techniques) and physically (the locks are very painful and there were a lot of atemi). One of the principle was to cripple. So, once your arm was stretched, the partner would block your elbow by pinning it down with his hand and knee and then lift your arm from the wrist while putting a lot of pressure on your elbow. This is a powerful lock and there are plenty of them for every part ofn the body.

The training took off after a while as one gradually gets more experience and skills. Then, one starts to get useful insights and guidance from people with more experience and skills. IMO, what really matters is how one consider what he is learning, what he wants to do with it. Some people just practice the form, others want to make them alive and want them to grow. In Japan, I have met a lot of different practioners. There are people with encyclopedic knowledge and surgical precision but with little to no fighting abilities, I have seen people with 30 or more years of training with no skills at all, I have seen people with very good overall skills and fighting abilities, usually very open minded and willing to share, and there are extraordinary people who transcend techniques and make them alive. I do not want to bother you with personal experiences but I remember one person in particular. At that time, he was 68 years old, that would make 66 or 67 by european standards but this is just a detail, he was hardly taller than 150 cm and not heavier than 60 kg. He had very small hands, like those of a young teenager but he was fantastic. The first he threw me in a flash like nothing I was shocked. He was bouncing on the mat like a ball and was incredibly fast. He had this uncanny skill of always finding the opening and breaking your balance, he would also apply locks very easily in a smooth, unforced way. Honnestly, seeing an older man moving that way and being in such a shape with such skills is just beautiful to watch.

It is true that the classical schools might not survive even in the near future and the policy of secrecy, the refusal to adapt to modern time, the rather close minded mentality are to blame.
For some reasons, the leaders of the classical schools are not able or not willing to make some adjustments even if it means the death of the school. It seems that no one wants to take the responsability to get the doors wide opened and to stop being overly conservsative. For historical reasons, a lot of these schools stopped evolving after the Meiji restoration and judo nearly killed them all.

Paradoxically, judo in its early days had a beautiful open doors policy. Guest teachers were invited at the kodokan and some techniques (not only fighting techniques by the way) were borrowed and then incorporated into the curriculum. This is not the case anymore, and judo has also become conservative and stopped evolving. As a result, judo is now losing practionners and has turned largely into a sport. What a waste when you think of it.

There is no reason for these schools not to evolve, some people are really trying to with mixed results but they have all my respect for that.

In conclusion, I believe that a martial art is meant to be practiced throughout life starting as early and stopping as late as possible. In the mean time, there are plenty of opportunities to experience, think, refine and evolve. All aspects are important: competition, preservation, techniques, body skills, adaptation and so on but there must a balance and a time for everything and more than often a whole life span is not enough.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby everything on Wed May 24, 2017 7:26 am

No one individual can learn everything. It's impossible. That's like saying as a musician you can be expert in all styles, genres, instruments, etc. If you are a pro fighter who started at age 3 and train all sports for mma, plus classical/traditional, maybe you can get closer than others.

Since it's mainly impossible, to keep this body of knowledge alive relies mainly on schools (not styles/arts) --- you need a teacher and student body that can maintain all of that knowledge so different individuals have some specializations but there is a lot of general overlap. If judo isn't doing it and traditional style schools are woefully out of touch with judo/bjj/sambo/mma/etc. who is going to do it??? I don't know. I don't think I lament it as much as you do, though. Humans don't need this knowledge now and if we ever do, honestly, it won't really be that hard to reinvent it (compared to other things, for example, if we lost the ability to fly to the moon or produce nuclear energy). No offense if you're a professional martial artist. MA is not exactly nuclear physics is all I'm saying.
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Re: It all comes from Ju-jutsu

Postby Ashura on Wed May 24, 2017 8:51 am

Everything,

-bow- -bow- -bow- -bow-
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