Kick boxing v. muay thai (Why it's important)

[Steve James]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpl_7w8-jTE

Your job; explain how to deal better with the Thai kicks.

[C.J.W.]

The American in the clip didn't fare well simply because he was dragged out of his kickboxing comfort zone where low kicks are not allowed, and fancy Taekwondo/Karate style high kicks are preferred. Knowing that he was up against a Muay Thai champ, he should've done his homework and worked hard on his low kick defense prior to the fight.

But that's all ancient history. Nowadays with the prevalence of MMA and all the cross-training, it's hard to imagine any half-decent fighter who doesn't have a game plan against low kicks.

[Steve James]

Back then, few had experience facing Muay Thai, but it was the same with grappling. Yeah, people had to adjust. But, I wanted to hear more about the image solutions.

[marvin8]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpl_7w8-jTE

Your job; explain how to deal better with the Thai kicks.

Lift your leg and check, the low Muay Thai kick. Per the producer, kickboxing learned this because of this fight, thus the title includes, "The Legendary Fight That Changed History."

The American in the clip didn't fare well simply because he was dragged out of his kickboxing comfort zone where low kicks are not allowed, and fancy Taekwondo/Karate style high kicks are preferred. Knowing that he was up against a Muay Thai champ, he should've done his homework and worked hard on his low kick defense prior to the fight.

But that's all ancient history. Nowadays with the prevalence of MMA and all the cross-training, it's hard to imagine any half-decent fighter who doesn't have a game plan against low kicks.

Exactly, kickboxing learned a lesson that night. After that fight, kickboxing respected Muay Thai more by adopting some of their power kicks and learned how to lift the leg and check lower leg kicks.

Back then, few had experience facing Muay Thai, but it was the same with grappling. Yeah, people had to adjust. But, I wanted to hear more about the image solutions.

What is the image problem, that needs a solution?

Duke Roufus is a respected MMA trainer because of his open mindedness to other martial arts. The kickboxer in the OP video is Rick Roufus, Duke Roufus' brother. Duke has made kickboxing better by learning from his brother's loss against the Muay Thai fighter. Duke continues to teach Muay Thai's powerful kicks and checking lower leg kicks.

Here's the "Part 2" to the OP video. Duke Rufus uses the lower leg kick, wins his last fight, and retires.

Published on May 27, 2014

Landing low-kicks against a trained fighter is not an easy task! This is a special follow up to "The Fight That Changed History." Duke Roufus tweeted, "Learn to turn weakness into a strength. At age 18 I saw my brother Rick get beat by low kicks by Changpuek. Fast forward broke 2 legs w/them." In Duke's retirement bout, he masterfully defeated his opponent with low-kicks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er1WD-79PLs

[Steve James]

Exactly, kickboxing learned a lesson that night. After that fight, kickboxing respected Muay Thai more by adopting some of their power kicks and learned how to lift the leg and check lower leg kicks.

Well, hopefully, kickboxers weren't the only ones to learn. Everybody knows now

Steve James wrote:
Back then, few had experience facing Muay Thai, but it was the same with grappling. Yeah, people had to adjust. But, I wanted to hear more about the image solutions.

What is the image problem, that needs a solution?

Oops, my glasses weren't on. I meant "about the imagined solutions" specifically by ima peeps.

Btw, "kickboxing" is a description, not a martial art. It applies equally to karate, tkd, and most other martial arts that had kicks and strikes. In fact, "kung fu" was the definition of "kick boxing" it was the practice that included and specialized in kicking. So, boxers had to adapt to techniques they hadn't seen. Sure, some said that kicking wasn't necessary. It's true. It isn't necessary for them. Mma practitioners are also kick-boxers who wrestle. The only reason why is because the Gracies showed that grappling could be effective against kicker-strikers. But, soon afterward, who downed the Gracies and changed the UFC again? The Muay Thai guys like Maurice Smith. Now, everyone in mma (not grappling) has to learn to deal with (and/or deliver) mt low kicks (as well as high tkd kicks).

Btw, I'm not saying that tcc (or bagua and xingyi) don't have obvious defenses against mt kicks. It'd be cool to see some videos.

[windwalker]

It would be interesting reading from those who practice
"iron body" or "golden bell cover" Which from a CMA perspective
was one way of addressing direct impacts on the body...

[Tiga Pukul]

American KickBoxing has always been a different type of 'kickboxing'.
In Holland the term Kickboxing is also used a lot, but basically refers to Muay Thai but without full muay thai rules (nowadays Glory or K1 rules), so no Elbows allowed and not too much clinching.

The lowkick is an awesome weapon to use. In Pukulan we use it as well, it is a bit similar to the Thai Lowkick but without swinging through, and by giving it with total relaxation, and I have yet to meet a guy who can handle a lowkick of my Teacher, even without using it fullpower. Funnily also met some Muay Thai competition fighters who couldn't handle the kick.

[marvin8]

Exactly, kickboxing learned a lesson that night. After that fight, kickboxing respected Muay Thai more by adopting some of their power kicks and learned how to lift the leg and check lower leg kicks.

Well, hopefully, kickboxers weren't the only ones to learn. Everybody knows now

Everyone knows, now. However, some practitioners are restricted in their form as defined by their style (e.g., tai chi, xing yi, bagua). Kickboxers and MMA do not have that problem of adopting Thai defense to lower kicks and their power kicks. Also, Kickboxers and MMA can adopt IMA defenses to Muay Thai, without criticism. As, they are not restricted by style.

As you mentioned, kickboxing can be a general term. Therefore, form doesn't matter. The same with MMA. MMA does not have a problem in their form (the way they look or techniques they use). No one can complain you're not doing MMA. Because, MMA can include many martial arts.

How good of a fighter you are is determined by displaying fundamental fighting skills, fighting attributes and application. Technique (form) is less important than fighting skills and attributes. A kick, punch or throw is scored on it's effectiveness and power. No points are awarded for what style (e.g, muay thai, tai chi, karate, etc.) is used.

Oops, my glasses weren't on. I meant "about the imagined solutions" specifically by ima peeps. . . .

Btw, I'm not saying that tcc (or bagua and xingyi) don't have obvious defenses against mt kicks. It'd be cool to see some videos.

In order to improve general public image, IMA should be treated as any other martial art. Muay Thai, BJJ, Karate, Judo, boxing, wrestling, Sanda, and Sambo has been proven to be effective in MMA. There is no reason why IMA should be exempt. Show that you can handle incoming force/energy from a resistant opponent. Either you can or you can not, yes or no.

[Steve James]

In order to improve general public image, IMA should be treated as any other martial art.

Well, tcc is "just another martial art." Any fault or benefit in terms of sport, health, combat is totally on the individual practitioner.

[everything]

A lot of fighters check low kicks but they don't necessarily know what to do about Jones' controversial low kicks to the thigh right above the knee (from JKD theory). He stops them from advancing and utilizes his long range as one possible plan A.

[marvin8]

It would be interesting reading from those who practice
"iron body" or "golden bell cover" Which from a CMA perspective
was one way of addressing direct impacts on the body...

Yi Long used "golden bell cover," . . . until he didn't.

@ :17, Yi Long, Shaolin Monk who resists KO.

Published on Nov 27, 2013:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGZ8qgooYrQ

@ 4:28, Yi Long gets punched and KO’d.

Published on Nov 1, 2016
Shaolin Kung Fu Master Vs Muay Thai Fighter - Knock Out!
A great fight from both fighters. AMAZING KNOCK OUT FINISH!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=145osI27Vyc

Shaolin Temple Wu Seng a dragon

A dragon, the Shandong Texas person, in April, 1987 was born, the height 1.76 meters, the body weight 72 kilograms, the Shaolin Temple lay family disciple, practiced Shaolin, the primal chaos, to chant spring, the boxing, the wrestling successively and so on, once attained the Guangdong Foshan international to chant spring the fist 黐 hand challenge match (75 kilograms levels) the champion.

Splendid nova

on July 18, 2009, a dragon presents the Henan health to regard the martial arts world wind for the first time, defeats body weight 95 kilogram Wang Zhi to be bright, a dragon displays the hard cloth unlined upper garment in the arena, to chant spring times and so on fist, by slightly wrestles is big, is colorful! Later will defeat in Hou Kui, Hao Zuoqiong, Yang Zhenbin, Wang Yanxin, post tower Ukraine Love · Anton, Zhang Chong, Jin Hongyu and so on extra-curricular to assault the master continuously.

On December 31, martial arts world wind world assaults fights the Sino-Russian dual meet, a dragon defeats the Russian professional master Quis seat of monarchical government · auspicious, hawk of the nickname Caucasus, from the Caucasus area's hammer of fist hall billy Tess war-god, height 180cm, body weight 70kg, on May 25, 1991 was born, extra-curricular competed 158 fights 152 win 102 KO matches, the occupation competes 25 fights 21 win 16 KO matches, once attained Japan to repair fights the competition champion, the European Tae Kwon Do champion, the Ukraine peaceful fist champion and so on.
The reason that a dragon maintains does not defeat the success, relies on its Shaolin hard training and chants spring the quick fist:

The golden bell glass, namely “has a gold to cast Zhong Fuzhao as the name suggests the whole body”, Shaolin one of four big marvelous abilities, is the dharma Zen master creates. Shaolin four big marvelous abilities: The golden bell glass (strengthened defense), Yi Jinjing (strengthened endogenic force), washes the marrow after (strengthened psychic force), the young lad merit (strengthened vitality).

Chants spring the fist is one kind of ten points scientific style and the artificializing skill at martial arts. Its strong point lies in buries the body to assault, the fist defends quickly closely, the ma bu is nimble and the rise and fall is quick, the offense and defense has both and defends attacks the same time, pays great attention the tamper force with mercy, the physical strength consumption are few. Li Xiaolong establishes truncation fist then stems from chants spring the fist.

Mudrakes of the Shaolin 72 skill, other name iron legs merit, the formula in verse said: Broom time might obviously, Huang Fengjuan speedily. Two leg hard like iron rods, sweep the enemy physique to break.

The dragon fourth match, Russia's post tower Ukraine Love · Anton, height 1.93 meters, body weight 90 kilograms. The start, a dragon uses the submergence to fall, because the Anton height reach, the body weight are big, the strength is big, falls the law not to be able to be effective; A dragon change tactic, display fast nimble superiority, after attack hit, withdraws immediately, seeks for the opportunity in circuitous socializing, and hits Anton's support leg by the Shaolin iron legs merit, has taken the competition finally!

On December 5, a dragon meets head-on the body weight to achieve 93 kilogram Jin Hong the rain, the match is in 2006 the wind and cloud strives for hegemony the year's end second place (finals to lose to Wang Hong auspicious), the rank is big, the strength is strong! Second round, a dragon has withstood Jin Hongyu unexpectedly using the Shaolin hard training the fierce combination fist ......A dragon has utilized diligently the traditional martial arts' essence in the arena actual combat.

in 2009, a dragon also participated in three outfield matches, respectively is the Henan Luoyang, Shandong Zou Cheng and Anhui Huaibei, the martial arts world wind success altogether 14 fights the total victory, 11 fight the Henan health to regard the direct seeding. Enters in 2010, increases two martial arts world wind common people arena victory, on May 1 the Sino-US dual meet, a dragon will challenge from US's jumbo, body weight 182 kilogram Dweh · Ye Si.

Although a dragon excels by slightly to wrestle in a big way, but this time surpasses the own body weight 2.5 time of above matches, a dragon can continue does not defeat the success?

Texas person's pride

Dezhou located at the Yellow River downstream, Shandong Province's northeast part, the history is glorious, the cultural inside story is rich, had since old times “nine reaches the day qu, god Beijing gateway” name. As soon as mentions Texas, everybody will often associate Texas to dig up the chicken, the Dongling small jujube and yu Wang Ting and so on, will also have “leads” the Chinese solar energy profession emperor bright solar energy groups, but this time must say that will be a Shandong Texas person - - martial arts world wind star dragon.

A dragon, 24 years old, the martial arts world wind arena success maintain until now from July, 2009 do not defeat, he excels at the Shaolin hard training and chants spring traditional martial arts and so on fist, now martial arts world wind international club training. The Thai ten section of boxing champions extreme are willing to miss (once defeated Japan “fable peaceful boxing champion” Kouzou Takeda) in club teaching period, to a dragon's degree of hardness is also raises up the thumb to commend, said that he cannot repel!

In the peaceful boxing champion extreme is willing to miss under the help, a dragon own fighting method system, integrated the peaceful fist knee law, to kick lowly and so on technologies, strengthened the striking power. Because competes frequently, a dragon is unable Shaolin Temple to practice, usually except exercises martial arts in the martial arts world wind international club, but also arrives at the fitness club practice instrument, therefore the muscle dragon vigor is powerful, can with surpass the own body weight 10-20 kilograms contestants in the arena to contend with.

As the saying goes “the Manchurian tiger, the northwest wolf, the Shandong guy is resounding”, the native of Shandong is powerfully built, the loyalty is sincere, is the nation is famous, and is assaulting is also establishes a new school, kick boxing king Liu Hailong, Chinese hero Wang Hong Xiangdu is the native of Shandong, Liu Hailong is the Yantai Laichau person's pride, but Wang Hong Xiang is the Jining Jiaxiang person's pride, in the future, a dragon will become the Texas person arrogantly? Texas's friends, you said?

Texas person makings how? The Texas locality has historical personage veteran Lian Po, the Warring States time Zhao outstanding strategist, with will be white, Wang Jian, Li Mubing to call “the Warring States four given names”. The change of the seasons, the vicissitudes, the Texas person still had gallops in the past the sandy plain military commander customs handed down from the past! May understand from a dragon body 12, his will tenacious, positive just military might, is maintaining frequently the exuberant fighting spirit!

A dragon physical quality is quite splendid, many specialized contestants also difficultly compare with it, however a dragon technology waits for consummating, the reason that favors him, was because of his personality charm, modest, intelligent, frank, diligent and so on, young facile could so, gradually influenced except the Buddhism cultures, wanted to come with the Texas native place culture related, ancient times Texas was situated at Yan the Zhao three neighbours, the Yellow River canal puts on the boundary, the Yellow River culture, Yan the Zhao culture, the Qi and Lu culture were well-established, the Da Yu culture, the Confucianist culture were ingrained.

A dragon said that he thanks each arena match, is precisely the match great strength, stimulates own latent energy unceasingly! “in golden scale can it be that pond thing, as soon as meets the wind and cloud to make the dragon”, in 2010, on a dragon whether a yet higher goal, does become in the martial arts world wind arena Wang Zhe?!
on April 30, 2010, a dragon KO sea Ye Si, has again proven the Chinese time myth.
Hoped that this Shaolin boy can more walk is ****her.

[dspyrido]

Methods to handle low kicks in order of preference:

1. Evasion
2. Counter kick/punch
3. Deflection/riding the kick
4. Checking/blocking

Counting backwards - checking relies on damn hard iron legs. The thai guys have similar skills. Net result I've seen is good iron leg guys who might make mince meat of amateurs end up neutral against good thai guys. In these cases checking does not win any fights without a counter kick but is a good last resort.

Deflection/riding the kick is actually a skill all good leg kickers use anyway. It needs excellent leg control and takes a long time to learn. All good kickers practice it and the benefit is that it can help set up a more effective counter. If the deflection fails it becomes a check.

Counter punch/kick works well but the problem is stopping the attack before it starts. Once the momentum builds of a good round kick then it also can end being 50/50. Counter attacking is also usually mixed in with deflection making it a good option.

Evasion is IMO the top method. By practising evasion the other moves of counter kicking, deflection & checking can be mixed in anyway.

Evading starts with understanding range & timing to avoid going too far back so as to counter.

Firstly it is important to know where the attacker starts. If they are in punching range then they can deliver a low kick without a step. If they are outside then someone needs to step into range to deliver the kick. So to counter - if they step into fist range and launch a kick then the evasion is to go back a 1/2 distance (ie the centre moves roughly to where the back leg was).

Examples of 1/2 distance evasion:

a) butt scoot where front leg goes near parallel to back leg & there is a slight lean forward to get the hips out of the way - hands shoot forward
b) shuffle back - front leg goes to where the back leg was and the back leg goes back - stance is not changed
c) leg swap - front leg takes a step back so the legs are now reversed stance

NOTE: I dislike the idea of trying to jump over a low kick. It's next to impossible against a good kicker.

But what happens if they are in leaning punching range and then they step and low kick?

Then evasion requires 1/2 distance (due to the step) + 1/2 (due to the kick). So just add 2 moves from above.

What happens if the attacker has much longer limbs? Then the defender needs to work double much as the attacker.

[windwalker]

Yi Long used "golden bell cover," . . . until he didn't

Obviously it must have worked for him in other events, just didn't in the one you posted.
What is notably is that he had enough confidence in it that he didn't offer any type of defensive movement at all.



looks like it worked for him here.

It would be more interesting to read from those here who use or practice this in their practice. If the point is to demo or show all fails
of things that people question why even post it? I could look and find anything talked about here failing at one time or another.

I would have thought that this being a Chinese MA site the point would be to show things in use....what is being used, how it works and why...
Many practice body hardening methods, if it had no functionality why practice it?

[windwalker]

A lot of fighters check low kicks but they don't necessarily know what to do about Jones' controversial low kicks to the thigh right above the knee (from JKD theory). He stops them from advancing and utilizes his long range as one possible plan A.

N-Mantis also has the same type of kick...teacher Brenden Lai, talked about his training in this when he trained in HK.
the kick was a little lower directed at the shin but was used in very much the same way...

What to do about the kick, kind of depends on ones perspective and skill sets trained, and level of skill of
the one employing them.

[marvin8]

Yi Long used "golden bell cover," . . . until he didn't

Obviously it must have worked for him in other events, just didn't in the one you posted. . . .
It would be more interesting to read from those here who use or practice this in their practice. If the point is to demo or show all fails
of things that people question why even post it? I could look and find anything talked about here failing at one time or another.

I would have thought that this being a Chinese MA site the point would be to show things in use....what is being used, how it works and why...
Many practice body hardening methods, if it had no functionality why practice it?

Wait . . . I posted two videos in direct response to your post:

It would be interesting reading from those who practice
"iron body" or "golden bell cover" Which from a CMA perspective
was one way of addressing direct impacts on the body...

These are the facts. Yi Long does golden bell cover; "practice this in his practice." One time it worked for Yi Long, After that, he was KO'd unconscious. I am not responsible for his outcomes.

There is no point in a lecture, telling a story, lineage or demonstration, when you have real fights to show "things in use," golden bell cover. Maybe you are not happy about the outcomes. Is it not more honest and safe to report the whole story, not just the parts you want to hear?