BGZ throws?

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BGZ throws?

Postby everything on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:34 pm

I tried to find tai chi throws on YouTube and it's a mess out there.

So I give up...

Got any baguazhang examples you like instead?
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby Shane_Lindsay on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:18 pm

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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:57 am

Thanks I was watching Cartmell examples when I posted, funnily enough.
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby shawnsegler on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:18 am











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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby everything on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:57 am

Thanks!
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:29 pm

Aha - Bagua throws?!! That Bagua! I thought bagua throwing was flipping coins for Yijing fortune telling. :P
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby charles on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:39 pm

Last edited by charles on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby Ian on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:48 pm

Cheng was a shuaijiao practitioner, and Dong only accepted students who were already adept at other styles.

You might as well study a throwing / takedown style first, and then use your bagua to fill in the holes. Or train both in conjunction.

Many styles "contain" throws, but unless you're regularly wrestling with friends, you really don't know whether:

-you have the attributes,
-you can use your stuff against higher-level opponents,
-you possess a grappler's body,
-you can sense and capitalise on action-reaction... etc.

These guys aren't jacked meatheads, but the level is just different:



It's how the bagua founders would've trained, imo.
Last edited by Ian on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby shawnsegler on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:07 pm

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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:52 am

Ian wrote:Cheng was a shuaijiao practitioner, and Dong only accepted students who were already adept at other styles.

You might as well study a throwing / takedown style first, and then use your bagua to fill in the holes. Or train both in conjunction.

Many styles "contain" throws, but unless you're regularly wrestling with friends, you really don't know whether:

-you have the attributes,
-you can use your stuff against higher-level opponents,
-you possess a grappler's body,
-you can sense and capitalise on action-reaction... etc.

It's how the bagua founders would've trained, imo.


Definitely. Wrestling/grappling is a great base and must've worked for Dong and Cheng. BGZ w/o that background they had doesn't seem ideal, or assumes some advanced level first. I probably won't go back to judo due to time/distance/interests, but definitely agree. I was reasonably ok at those 4 points (hobbyist level), but some other sports take most of my time/available sport energy (I'm only reasonably good at those too at hobbyist level, sigh. It is what it is.).
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:33 am

everything wrote:Definitely. Wrestling/grappling is a great base and must've worked for Dong and Cheng. BGZ w/o that background they had doesn't seem ideal, or assumes some advanced level first. I probably won't go back to judo due to time/distance/interests, but definitely agree. I was reasonably ok at those 4 points (hobbyist level), but some other sports take most of my time/available sport energy (I'm only reasonably good at those too at hobbyist level, sigh. It is what it is.).

Jose Aldo, former two-time UFC Featherweight Champion, wants to be released from UFC and pursue his interests in soccer. :)

Excerpt from , https://www.mmafighting.com/2016/10/3/1 ... r-mcgregor:
Guilherme Cruz | Oct 3, 2016 wrote:Jose Aldo wants to leave the UFC and the sport for good, and says that not even an offer to rematch Conor McGregor would change his mind. . . .

With his future still up in the air, Aldo continues to make plans. As a man who once dreamed about becoming a soccer player before he got involved with martial arts as a young kid, the UFC legend mentioned working with soccer as one of his goals for the future. He admits that he might be too old to actually play soccer professionally, but could have a career as manager.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCxvsIt5KoM

More internal throw videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ksZLZr4Rdc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ubcfwHZ0A8
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:40 am

awesome about Aldo's plans. soccer is (potentially) more lucrative, usually safer (there are still lots of contact and non-contact injuries), longer career, etc. Subjectively, it's also a lot more fun (objectively according to the fan base and money spent this seems true too) and has some light incidental grappling all the time (and lots of fake falling/breakfalls). However, it doesn't seem likely he could succeed at a high level in two sports (same with Tim Tebow, Michael Jordan, etc., etc.). There's always pro wrestling hahaha.

Thanks for the huge amount of video examples.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:14 am

To expand on my post. I like the last Su Dong Chen video and two videos I posted because the player creates reaction from the opponent, then takes action upon those opponent's reactions (e.g., energy direction). This displays the art of change.

The other videos are good for technique. However, the opponents are not moving and reacting, as they would in a fight.

Excerpt from AN INTRODUCTION TO BA GUA ZHANG, http://www.shenwu.com/bagua.htm:
Tim Cartmell wrote:Basically, Ba Gua Zhang fighting theory advocates the complete avoidance of opposing power with power and adopts a kind of guerilla warfare mentality. The Ba Gua Zhang fighter continuously seeks to avoid the apex of the opponent's force and attacks or counterattacks from the opponent's weak angles. By circling around and circumventing incoming force and resistance, the Ba Gua Zhang fighter applies his own whole body power from a position of superiority This strategy allows the smaller and weaker fighter to apply maximum force from an angle at which the larger and stronger opponent cannot resist, effectively making the weaker fighter more powerful at that moment (for example, I have 10 units of total strength and my opponent has 20. I attack with my full 10 units of strength at an angle at which my opponent is only able to use 5 units of his total strength. I am, at that moment, literally twice as strong as my opponent).

In order to obtain a superior position, the Ba Gua Zhang fighter applies the basic strategies trained in the solo forms' practice, that is, circling around the opponent or rotating the opponent around oneself. The result is the same in both cases. The Ba Gua Zhang fighter avoids a head to head confrontation with the opponent's power and obtains a superior position from which to attack. Along the way, the opponent often becomes entangled in the Ba Gua Zhang fighter's limbs and loses control of his center of balance (correctly applied momentum overcomes brute strength every time). This loss of balance causes a commensurate loss of power and further weakens the opponent, leaving him vulnerable to the Ba Gun Zhang fighter's attack. Finally, the relaxed physical and mental state of the Ba Gua Zhang fighter makes it possible for him to change and adapt as the situation demands. His movements are spontaneous and difficult to predict. Fighters of all disciplines agree that the unpredictable fighter is the hardest to beat (especially when he circles behind you!).
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby everything on Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:35 am

Thanks man. I wish I could study all of this to the level you guys talk about / are at / teach / compete/ etc. Unfortunately I can't. On the brighter side, I'm doing some more beginner level throwing (cooperative level) again now that one of my kids is learning some MA (including some throws and takedowns). This isn't quite as interesting but is what I can do for now. Really appreciate all the videos and explanations!
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Re: BGZ throws?

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:56 pm

marvin8 wrote:.

Excerpt from AN INTRODUCTION TO BA GUA ZHANG, http://www.shenwu.com/bagua.htm:
Tim Cartmell wrote:Basically, Ba Gua Zhang fighting theory advocates the complete avoidance of opposing power with power and adopts a kind of guerilla warfare mentality. The Ba Gua Zhang fighter continuously seeks to avoid the apex of the opponent's force and attacks or counterattacks from the opponent's weak angles. By circling around and circumventing incoming force and resistance, the Ba Gua Zhang fighter applies his own whole body power from a position of superiority


Quite generalized and simplified. What is said here is only true of one of several strategies found in different Bagua styles. For instance, in Yin-branches, the stylist is more prone to strike, or in other ways go, right against the opponents strength while maintaining a superior structure.
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